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Thread: Concealed Carry in Wisconsin. Get your permits here!?

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    So, maybe this isn't news to some of you but I met a guy earlier this year who has a DOJ issued CCW. He was never affiliated with law enforcement. Being the owner of a company, he had received numerous death threats from one or two ex employees. He was required to prove that he needed one and had to give them a few taped phone conversations and other witnesses to the threat.

    I got a look at the permit; no expiration that I could see, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe this guy or the permit were not legitimate.

    This brings up a few questions for me.

    1. Can we FOIA this stuff and find out how many non-LEO people have been granted this "privilege"? I understand they may have reason to withhold the names of the individuals but they should have no reason to withhold the number of permits.

    2. Does this give grounds for an equal protection challenge?

    What do you guys think? Have you heard of this before?
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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    So, maybe this isn't news to some of you but I met a guy earlier this year who has a DOJ issued CCW. He was never affiliated with law enforcement. Being the owner of a company, he had received numerous death threats from one or two ex employees. He was required to prove that he needed one and had to give them a few taped phone conversations and other witnesses to the threat.

    I got a look at the permit; no expiration that I could see, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe this guy or the permit were not legitimate.

    This brings up a few questions for me.

    1. Can we FOIA this stuff and find out how many non-LEO people have been granted this "privilege"? I understand they may have reason to withhold the names of the individuals but they should have no reason to withhold the number of permits.

    2. Does this give grounds for an equal protection challenge?

    What do you guys think? Have you heard of this before?
    I've heard of one person who provided details on a drug-ring, that was issued a CCW by a judge. Didn't believe it then, but now that more incidents are being reported...WTF ?
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    As we know, there is no basis in law for a Wisconsin permit to concealed carry. Perhaps WE should gin-up and issue one.

    Or an open carry permit.

    So much for the rule of law, the signature on the 'permit' being its only authority.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    As we know, there is no basis in law for a Wisconsin permit to concealed carry. Perhaps WE should gin-up and issue one.

    Or an open carry permit.

    So much for the rule of law, the signature on the 'permit' being its only authority.
    There's basis in case law.

    The Hamdan test.

    Maybe that's how they justify it. Since it's the DOJ, they are just saying up front that this person's need to conceal is greater than the states interest in prohibiting it. Just like anything else, this could go to court; like Hamdan or Vegas, but in this case the state has already said that they don't have a greater interest than this particular individual. It's like a get out of jail free card.

    That being as it may, I say our interest in carrying in any manner is greater than the states interest in exercising it's police power to prohibit it. Why should this individual fear more for his life than Vegas or Hamdan.... more than you or I. Where is equal protection under the law?

    I wonder if Vegas was issued one?
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    As we know, there is no basis in law for a Wisconsin permit to concealed carry. Perhaps WE should gin-up and issue one.

    Or an open carry permit.

    So much for the rule of law, the signature on the 'permit' being its only authority.
    Why would you want to have a permit system to do something you can already do without a permit? Sounds like do-do. Or did I miss an inside joke?

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    I would be a million times more inclined to believe that whatever that guy showed you is a fake. I bet the DOJ would be very interested in seeing that "permit."


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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Shotgun wrote:
    I would be a million times more inclined to believe that whatever that guy showed you is a fake. I bet the DOJ would be very interested in seeing that "permit."

    As I said, I have no reason to believe it was a fake. This wasn't some guy looking for attention.

    Also, like Lurchurion, this isn't the first time I've heard of this, just the first time I've seen one.

    In any case, it's worth checking in to IMHO.
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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    In any case, it's worth checking in to IMHO.
    But how? With no citation to a law and no citation to the issuing authority's name or office, how?

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Brass Magnet wrote:
    In any case, it's worth checking in to IMHO.
    But how? With no citation to a law and no citation to the issuing authority's name or office, how?
    It was Department of Justice. I imagine the same people that give the retired DOJ cops theirs.

    The Wisconsin state Department of Justice has issued 15 concealed weapons permits to retired agents, making them the only former state police officers who can pack pistols in public in Wisconsin. Other state agencies, such as the State Patrol and Capitol Police, don't allow their retirees to carry concealed guns, despite a 2004 federal law allowing the practice in some cases. Around the state, there is a patchwork of retirees who can carry weapons because local police and sheriff's offices issue the permits. Wisconsin and Illinois are the only two states that don't allow the general public to get licenses to carry concealed weapons. The issue has been fiercely debated here, with Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle twice vetoing such bills. Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen in June issued the first concealed weapons permit to a Division of Criminal Investigation retiree. He said at the time he would issue them to other qualifying retirees who wanted them and that he hoped his decision would show other state agencies that they could issue the permits too. But the other state agencies have declined to do so because there are no state standards for issuing the permits. After issuing one permit to a retired agent in June, the Department of Justice sent letters to all eligible retirees letting them know the permits were available. Of the 50 or so contacted, 14 said they wanted to get them. They shot on the range in September and were given permits that are good for one year. The retirees have to meet the same standards as current agents, said Mike Myszewski, who heads the division. "I think the program is working very well," Myszewski said. "These are people who spent their adult lives in law enforcement." State Patrol Superintendent David Collins said he had not seen any increased interest for permits from retired troopers since Van Hollen began issuing the permits. Collins has raised concerns in the past about people's ability to make split-second decisions if they've been out of law enforcement for years. Under the 2004 federal law, police agencies can permit former officers to carry concealed firearms if they retired in good standing, worked as an officer for 15 years or more, have met state firearms training standards within the past year, and are not otherwise barred from possessing a firearm under federal law. But some argue such permits can't be issued in Wisconsin because the state does not set training standards for law enforcement agencies. Van Hollen, a Republican, has maintained law enforcement agencies have the power to issue the permits. "I believe it is important to put our money where our mouth is," he said in a statement. "By having the Department of Justice take the lead when it comes to providing one of our own retired law enforcement officers with a permit to carry a concealed firearm, I believe it shows that we have the confidence in local law enforcement agencies in their ability to do this on their own." Van Hollen lobbied for a bill that would have set criteria for police agencies for issuing the permits and given them immunity from lawsuits. Neither house took up the bill before the Legislature adjourned in March, however. John Palmer, 62, retired from the Department of Justice in 2003 after 26 years. Now a part-time private investigator, he said he decided to get a concealed weapons permit but didn't plan to carry a gun often. "I would only be using it when I felt it would be needed for my own security," he said. Retiree Greg Eggum, 63, said he decided to get a permit because it gave him a chance to spend some time with his former colleagues on the shooting range. A former state fire marshal, Eggum said he didn't plan to carry a gun personally but that he was glad other retirees would. "The public is probably going to be safer for it as far as I'm concerned," he said. "I think the attorney general did the public a service by letting his retired officers carry." Among those declining to issue the permits are the Capitol Police, State Patrol, Department of Natural Resources' Law Enforcement Bureau and University of Wisconsin-Madison Police Department. By Patrick Marley of the Journal Sentinel Source: JS Online
    So maybe FOIA JB's office, and the DOJ for any and all records associated with granting CCW's to former DOJ employee's and members of the public?
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Brass Magnet wrote:
    In any case, it's worth checking in to IMHO.
    But how? With no citation to a law and no citation to the issuing authority's name or office, how?
    It was Department of Justice. I imagine the same people that give the retired DOJ cops theirs.

    The Wisconsin state Department of Justice has issued 15 concealed weapons permits to retired agents, making them the only former state police officers who can pack pistols in public in Wisconsin. Other state agencies, such as the State Patrol and Capitol Police, don't allow their retirees to carry concealed guns, despite a 2004 federal law allowing the practice in some cases. Around the state, there is a patchwork of retirees who can carry weapons because local police and sheriff's offices issue the permits. Wisconsin and Illinois are the only two states that don't allow the general public to get licenses to carry concealed weapons. The issue has been fiercely debated here, with Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle twice vetoing such bills. Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen in June issued the first concealed weapons permit to a Division of Criminal Investigation retiree. He said at the time he would issue them to other qualifying retirees who wanted them and that he hoped his decision would show other state agencies that they could issue the permits too. But the other state agencies have declined to do so because there are no state standards for issuing the permits. After issuing one permit to a retired agent in June, the Department of Justice sent letters to all eligible retirees letting them know the permits were available. Of the 50 or so contacted, 14 said they wanted to get them. They shot on the range in September and were given permits that are good for one year. The retirees have to meet the same standards as current agents, said Mike Myszewski, who heads the division. "I think the program is working very well," Myszewski said. "These are people who spent their adult lives in law enforcement." State Patrol Superintendent David Collins said he had not seen any increased interest for permits from retired troopers since Van Hollen began issuing the permits. Collins has raised concerns in the past about people's ability to make split-second decisions if they've been out of law enforcement for years. Under the 2004 federal law, police agencies can permit former officers to carry concealed firearms if they retired in good standing, worked as an officer for 15 years or more, have met state firearms training standards within the past year, and are not otherwise barred from possessing a firearm under federal law. But some argue such permits can't be issued in Wisconsin because the state does not set training standards for law enforcement agencies. Van Hollen, a Republican, has maintained law enforcement agencies have the power to issue the permits. "I believe it is important to put our money where our mouth is," he said in a statement. "By having the Department of Justice take the lead when it comes to providing one of our own retired law enforcement officers with a permit to carry a concealed firearm, I believe it shows that we have the confidence in local law enforcement agencies in their ability to do this on their own." Van Hollen lobbied for a bill that would have set criteria for police agencies for issuing the permits and given them immunity from lawsuits. Neither house took up the bill before the Legislature adjourned in March, however. John Palmer, 62, retired from the Department of Justice in 2003 after 26 years. Now a part-time private investigator, he said he decided to get a concealed weapons permit but didn't plan to carry a gun often. "I would only be using it when I felt it would be needed for my own security," he said. Retiree Greg Eggum, 63, said he decided to get a permit because it gave him a chance to spend some time with his former colleagues on the shooting range. A former state fire marshal, Eggum said he didn't plan to carry a gun personally but that he was glad other retirees would. "The public is probably going to be safer for it as far as I'm concerned," he said. "I think the attorney general did the public a service by letting his retired officers carry." Among those declining to issue the permits are the Capitol Police, State Patrol, Department of Natural Resources' Law Enforcement Bureau and University of Wisconsin-Madison Police Department. By Patrick Marley of the Journal Sentinel Source: JS Online
    So maybe FOIA JB's office, and the DOJ for any and all records associated with granting CCW's to former DOJ employee's and members of the public?
    FOIA request, good idea. I would like to see a list, showing how many non LEO CCW permits have been issued.
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