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WSJ - Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Home Depot Inc., Best Buy Co. and Barnes & Noble Inc., are d

xml357

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I was accused on this site of not knowing from which I speak. Been going armed in Florida since 1962, been there, done that.

The element of surprise is 90% of the victory. Don’t know who said it but it makes sense.

Open Carry is an invitation to confrontation, like a chip on the shoulder. Bad guys can see you are armed and plan accordingly, maybe a group attach from behind.

Concealed Carry on the other hand has the huge advantage of the element of surprise. The bad guys never know who is armed, so are cautious of everyone. If lots of citizens go concealed those who do not are protected by the umbrella.

OC, Scenario #1A:
You are in a store and a bad guy comes in intend on robbery. He sees you are armed and he may change his mind or attack you first. Best outcome, a gunfight where only the bad guy is shot. Worse outcome, all of you are shot – including the innocent clerk. Lots of legal paperwork and unless you have a LIVE witness to say you were defending the clerk you may end up in jail.

CC, Scenario #1B:
You are in a store and a bad guy comes in intend on robbery. If he sees you he will likely tell you to get on the floor then divert his attention back to the clerk. This gives you the opportunity to pull you CW and get the drop on him. With luck, he will surrender with no shots fired. If not you have a dead aim on him and can likely drop him with one shot sparing the clerk. After a lot of legal paperwork, everyone goes home except the bad guy who goes to the hospital/morgue or jail.

OC, Scenario #2A:
You make a withdrawal at an ATM. Since your weapon is visible it’s unlikely a single bad guy will confront you. Instead you may be attacked by two or more. One distracts you while another attacks from behind or just shoots you. You not only loose your money but your gun and maybe your life.

CC, Scenario #2B:
You make a withdrawal at an ATM. Since your weapon is NOT visible any bad guys are cautious. If confronted you have the element of surprise. Anthony Quinn’s ruse in “The Guns of Navarone” (1961) works like a charm. <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054953/>

I could go on and on but you get the point. Speak softly, carry a big stick and keep it out of sight. I’ve used my weapon to defend myself and my family several times since 1962 yet never fired a shot. It was the element of surprise that made the day.
 

ixtow

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xml357 wrote:
I was accused on this site of not knowing from which I speak. Been going armed in Florida since 1962, been there, done that.

The element of surprise is 90% of the victory. Don’t know who said it but it makes sense.
The rest of your message is irrelevant. You just failed right there.

CC does not PREVENT, it gives you a chance to WIN, AFTER THE SITUATION IS ALREADY BAD. Yes, it can, maybe, possibly give you a 'victory.' But a REAL VICTORY is not having to even put your hand on it.

OC is about making sure it never gets that far in the first place.

How long you have been carrying is irrelevant. The method, Concealed, means you have never prevented a crime, just averted them after they began.

I Carry Concealed in Florida, too. I know exactly how it works, and DOESN'T work. Your explanations skip over the part that actually counts.

The 'element of surprise' is only useful for an attacker, not a defender. Even an amateur strategist knows this.

I'm sure you can go on and on, but it won't become sensible, rational, or real.

None of the scenarios you've described have ever happened. Not even once! An absolute NEVER. I challenge you to cite even one instance!

But how many CCers have been attacked? If the answer is more than one (and it's a LOT more than 1), The point is proven.

Case closed!

Your silly 'what if's' are just as unbased as the Brady's. OMG, the steets will run like rivers of blood!

Whatever.
 

Palecon

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Righ on ix, I agree, good posts.

As Bill Carnes has said recently the NRA is in it to play the game, not win it.

Trolls stay out...p



ixtow wrote:
HankT wrote:
ixtow wrote:
The NRA have made it abundantly clear that they support a paid-for, government-issued PRIVILEGE, not anyone's rights of any kind at all.
That's a pretty broad accusation.

NOT

ANY
ONE's rights of

ANY KIND

AT ALL.



Can you provide some of your justification for that kind of absolutist position?

An example,perhaps...an argument with some details...

Something?

Have you ever been a member of the NRA, by the way?

Yes I can, HankT.

The NRA supports the Brady Check on all gun purchases. This alone transforms the Right into a Privilege because one has to beg for permission and pay. Support of concealed Carry is another example of the same. The NRA virtually authored the '86 Ban. Etc... They support government regulation of all firearms to such a degree that it is no longer a Right. They are their own 'only ones.'

No, I have never been a member. What's that got to do with anything?

But you already knew all of this. You're just trolling, as usual.

Really, must I cite to everything you disagree with or pretend not to know already? I wasn't put on this earth to be your babysitter, nor you mine.
 

wrightme

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reverenddan wrote:
I will tell you all right now that Home Depot will NOT allow open carry in their store.

As a former employee I was grilled with the rules and they state clearly that no weapons are allowed on the premises and this includes even the smallest pocket knife.

They go so far as to tell employees that they may not lock a personal weapon in their vehicle if it is on company property.

I cannot imagine them amending their rules to allow customers to open carry.
That is a policy for employees.
 

Grapeshot

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xml357 wrote:
I was accused on this site of not knowing from which I speak. Been going armed in Florida since 1962, been there, done that
.
There are obviously some things you missed/have not learned.

The element of surprise is 90% of the victory. Don’t know who said it but it makes sense.

Surprise is an offensive tactic. Prevention is a preferred defense.
OC as a defensive method is very effective.

Open Carry is an invitation to confrontation, like a chip on the shoulder. Bad guys can see you are armed and plan accordingly, maybe a group attach from behind.

If you see OC as confrontational, the problem is in your perception. Tools have no behavior - it is the person's conduct/actions that count. Do you think that automobiles are confrontational?


Concealed Carry on the other hand has the huge advantage of the element of surprise. The bad guys never know who is armed, so are cautious of everyone. If lots of citizens go concealed those who do not are protected by the umbrella
.
A CCer looks just like any unarmed person to the bg until you do what? Answer: show your gun! Now you are actively engaged in an expensive (life and $) situation of the type we wish to avoid. BTW - let's ask the criminal which one of us he would attack - want to bet on the answer?

Snipped all scenarios
What ifs and might happen are frankly just that - day dreams. not reality. We deal in facts and the fact is OCing prevents criminal attacks, not provokes them.

I could go on and on but you get the point. Speak softly, carry a big stick and keep it out of sight. I’ve used my weapon to defend myself and my family several times since 1962 yet never fired a shot. It was the element of surprise that made the day.

BTW - "speak softly and carry a big stick" is attributed to Teddy Roosevelt and he NEVER said to "keep it out of sight."

I get the point that you are anti OC and do not wish to keep an open mind.

I carry (not use) my gun to defend myself and family everyday BY OCing. The "element of surprise" may have "made your day" - not having to draw mine makes my day!"
You may be seated - class is dismissed, except for you.

Your homework assignment is to read extensively and to try to grasp the wisdom and sincerity of this movement before you return and purport to be the new resident expert in how others should conduct themselves.

We do not criticize your preference to CC - don't care how you carry or even if you do. That is your personal choice. Now take a deep breath and have a nice day.

Yata hey
 

ixtow

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Grapeshot wrote:
want to bet on the answer?
I bet on that answer every day, with my LIFE. The State forces me to. It's a bet I've come very close to losing more than once.

CC Permits have only existed in Florida since 1987. This poster claims Since 1962...? :-/

Doing something stupid for a really long time doesn't make one qualified to force it on others. Nor does it justify or validate the behavior. Smoking for 30 years and dying of lung cancer is a good analogy..... It didn't stop being dangerous just because he did it since 1962....

If bad guys really to 'plan accordingly' when they see an OCer, you'd think there would be some example of this happening somewhere on planet earth.... Even once?

CCers start ignoring their own rationale in this debate. They carry guns why? Because criminals are cowards. But suddenly, if it's an OCer, well, they organize into teams of cowards who will attack as a group? Where is the logic in this? Hell, even if you abandon logic, where is the evidence? When has it ever happened? People have been OCing in many states since before this country was even a country. Yet we still can't find an example of some guy going shopping, to the ATM, anywhere, and being jumped by a bunch of cowards who formed a group and attacked him BECAUSE he was armed...? Hello? Anybody home?

Oh hell, why don't I just nail it as it stands?

OC, Scenario #1A:
You are in a store and a bad guy comes in intend on robbery. He sees you are armed and he may change his mind or attack you first. Best outcome, a gunfight where only the bad guy is shot. Worse outcome, all of you are shot – including the innocent clerk. Lots of legal paperwork and unless you have a LIVE witness to say you were defending the clerk you may end up in jail.

Really? then why is it the only known reports are of.

a) OCer shoots bad guy.
b) OCer can draw faster and shoots bad guy.
c) Bad Guy sees man with gun and hauls ass, no shots fired.

Note, cameras make great witnesses. Stores usually have lots of them.

CC, Scenario #1B:
You are in a store and a bad guy comes in intend on robbery. If he sees you he will likely tell you to get on the floor then divert his attention back to the clerk.
This gives you the opportunity to pull you CW and get the drop on him. With luck, he will surrender with no shots fired. If not you have a dead aim on him and can likely drop him with one shot sparing the clerk. After a lot of legal paperwork, everyone goes home except the bad guy who goes to the hospital/morgue or jail.

a) I guess you're going to need a little time to dig it out of concealment.... Hope he doesn't notice you doing that, cuz you sure as hell can't draw fast enough to save yourself. You just proved that point by stating that you are given an opportunity to draw, that you otherwise would not have had! OC doesn't require 'opportunity' to draw, it's right there.

OC, Scenario #2A:
You make a withdrawal at an ATM. Since your weapon is visible it’s unlikely a single bad guy will confront you. Instead you may be attacked by two or more. One distracts you while another attacks from behind or just shoots you. You not only loose your money but your gun and maybe your life.


a) Becasue they won't just wait for the next person?
b) They'd rather take the chance of both/all getting killed by the gun they can obviously see?
c) Distracted? Really? ATM thieves don't try this already? CCers don't think about this possibility? The unarmed don't think about this possibility? So, obviously, no OCer would ever have this thought...

CC, Scenario #2B:
You make a withdrawal at an ATM. Since your weapon is NOT visible any bad guys are cautious. If confronted you have the element of surprise. Anthony Quinn’s ruse in “The Guns of Navarone” (1961) works like a charm. <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054953/>


a) Why are they cautious when they DON'T see a gun, but throw caution tot he wind when they do? That's just plain stupid to say. Who falls for that?
b) You cited a MOVIE? This is your source? A friggin' movie? Are you retarded?

If confronted, the only surprise you'll have, is that you can't get at your gun fast enough when your ATTACKER uses the element of surprise on you!

My challenge still stands. Please cite even one instance of an OCer being 'attacked first,' or attacked AT ALL by a criminal. I'm still waiting. I've been waiting for nearly 10 years, since I 'discovered' this concept. Still, nothing. Not one instance of these bizarre and nonsensical 'what if's' you've presented ever happening. NOT EVEN ONCE!!!
 

TFred

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To the new folks, welcome to Open Carry Dot Org!! (OCDO... I'm sad to say it took me several weeks to figure that out...)

Cogent debate is generally welcome here, even if some folks do respond a bit passionately. Tensions are high right now with the SCOTUS oral arguments in McDonald last Tuesday, the Starbucks issue on-going, and many of us here live in Virginia, where the Senate Democrats just pulled a fast one that has much of the freedom-loving side of the population as angry as agitated bees.

As you are certainly able to figure out, this site is a strong proponent of OPEN carry. You will not have any new information to bring here in support of concealed-only carry that has not already been heard, thoroughly debated, and done with.

That doesn't mean you aren't welcome here, this site generally supports all lawful carry, but it would cause everyone a lot less consternation if you kept the name and purpose of the site in mind as you post.

To xml357, your scenarios were interesting, but here is just one real-life, actually happened account where OC did prevent a robbery. There are others.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d18-Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-Kennesaw

TFred
 

ixtow

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TFred wrote:
To the new folks, welcome to Open Carry Dot Org!! (OCDO... I'm sad to say it took me several weeks to figure that out...)

Cogent debate is generally welcome here, even if some folks do respond a bit passionately. Tensions are high right now with the SCOTUS oral arguments in McDonald last Tuesday, the Starbucks issue on-going, and many of us here live in Virginia, where the Senate Democrats just pulled a fast one that has much of the freedom-loving side of the population as angry as agitated bees.

As you are certainly able to figure out, this site is a strong proponent of OPEN carry. You will not have any new information to bring here in support of concealed-only carry that has not already been heard, thoroughly debated, and done with.

That doesn't mean you aren't welcome here, this site generally supports all lawful carry, but it would cause everyone a lot less consternation if you kept the name and purpose of the site in mind as you post.

To xml357, your scenarios were interesting, but here is just one real-life, actually happened account where OC did prevent a robbery. There are others.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d18-Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-Kennesaw

TFred
I was looking for that.... It happened recently, too.

Of all places, Kennesaw. The town that REQUIRES gun ownership. They don't enforce it, but the law is still on the books.
 

Reverend45Cal

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"OC, Scenario #2A:
You make a withdrawal at an ATM. Since your weapon is visible it’s unlikely a single bad guy will confront you. Instead you may be attacked by two or more. One distracts you while another attacks from behind or just shoots you. You not only loose your money but your gun and maybe your life."

I go the bank a lot at night i go to the bank OC. Have got out of my car with 4-5 guys hanging around the ATM like they are waiting for something, all turn tail and walk away when they see me walking up with a gun on my hip. This happens about 2x a month. Sure someone else might be their victim but its not going to be me. Your point has been proven to be just another "What If".
What if i drive to work and get into a accident, what if the sky falls, what if, what if, what if.

Its been proven that it does detour attacks, the odds are in the favor of the OC.
 

ixtow

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I liken his explanations as follows:

Some people like to be REALLY prepared. Like people who live underground and save 2 years of food; just in case there is a nuclear holocaust. You might think they are strange, but they're ready for the worst. It doesn't hurt anyone that they do that. In the politics of today, it might not be a bomb, but being prepared for anything isn't all that bad of an idea. It has some reason to it.

Now, his scenarios are like preparing for a milkshake bomb. Not just any milkshake bomb, but a bomb that turns all stray cats into milkshakes. Milkshakes with AIDS in them! They come chasing after your firstborn with their straws trying to inject your kids with Strawberry Milkshake AIDS!!!

It's total nonsense. You can't prepare for it. And even if you could, why would you bother preparing for something ridiculous and silly like that?

He then proceeds to argue that gargling the blood of AIDS victims is the only way to be prepared...

CC is better than nothing. Just barely. Trying to pass it off as some kind of advantage over OC is asinine, at best.

I'm guilty of once promoting the very things he has spoken. I'm also guilty of having to learn the hard way what a crock of sh!t it is. He may think I'm hostile or stupid; but I still hope he listens instead of having to learn the hard way like I did. CC sucks and provides a false sense of security. A gun burried in your belt line in deep conceal (as required in Florida, printing is a Felony) is almost as useless as not having one at all. You may as well leave it at home in most scenarios, you'll never have a chance to draw and use it when the bad guys use the element of surprise on YOU.

I'm still curious how, in any of the scenarios he presented, having to take several seconds to dig his gun out while being attacked by a mob, is better than being able to draw straight from his hip in less than 1/4 of a second.... I still don't see how that is better as he claims.

I don't knock 'what if' scenarios outright. That's how you prepare mentally, you run the 'what if's' through your head over and over again. But they ahve to be sane 'what if's.' there is no reason for me to mentally prepare by saying to myself "What if The Incredible Hulk and Superman get into a fight in front of my house?" That's just stupid.
 

N6ATF

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NewZealandAmerican wrote:
ixtow wrote:
Badnarik wrote:
The reason we are standing chest deep in the septic tank of today's political process is because we've lost sight of the fact that "We the People" are supposed to be protecting the Constitution, not the other way around.
Politicians attack it with unspeakable vengeance, it's up to us to preserve it.

If those attackers have all the guns............ We're not going to be able to do a very good job.

This is THE reason why I can't stand people who want to 'be reasonable' and let 'the system work for us.' It doesn't work for anything but itself. If you don't threaten it when it threatens you, the Constitution dies. A piece of paper will not save anyone from anything. The ideas preserved in the constitution mean and do nothing, if it doesn't get conveyed into the minds of the People it was meant as a Blood-Bought gift for.

Squander that gift in 'being reasonable,' and you'll get exactly what you deserve for doing it.

Amen Ixtow,

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

I hope it doesn't come to this, an armed rebellion, I would prefer for us, We The People to take back our freedom by any means through the system by "infiltration" getting our people in places of office from the "bottom up" in our towns, counties and States, forget DC, it's a lost cause beyond rehabilitation, http://www.SheriffMack.com but i fear it may be too late to awaken enough of the "default crowd" to stand and fight with us.

Amongst some of our own some are ready to take up armed marches and I plead with you not to! Let them take the first shot, then we march when we then have no other choice but to take up arms. If we shoot first, then that will quickly bring marshal law down upon us prematurely, the govt is itching for us to go crazy and for them to entice us to attack first, but if they shoot first then we shoot back and fight like lions for our freedoms, our faith our wives and our children!!!Bloodshed is a last resort! If a few of us attack first then we are outnumbered and it's over in a blink but if we hold out and wait for them to attack us first so that the people can see some of our own being mowed down by the govt then we will be incited andhave many more numbers then on our side to fight back with (armed) because it is in our blood as Americans to fight like lions when we all realise that our govt is murdering some of us.

I think things will have to get really bad first before many more Americans (the default crowd AKA sheeple)wake up in bigger numbers and more quickly, a lot worse than things are now. Trust me when i say this, things really are going to get much worse to the point that the Depression will be like a Sunday picnic and America economically will become third world like Mexico or Honduras etc within the next 10 yrs or less, we are now on the brink of hyper-inflation and when things get so bad there will be long lines (food lines) and riots in the street, people so angry and ready to attack and the govt wants this as their excuse and catalysts to round up the people, clamp down on them etc. that's why we have to prepare first. wake up our neighbors and only fight back when we are attacked by the Govt and their JBT's or "darth vader" police whatever you want to call them. http://www.OathKeepers.org
The sad fact is some of us have been killed by 1,000 (or should I say 20,000) cuts. So many laws prohibiting law-abiding citizens from defending themselves that too many have died, disarmed and paralyzed by fear.

And, the first (and second, third, etc...) shots have already been fired by the government. Our sheriff here in San Diego is one of those conspirators, where a mother holding only her baby was summarily executed at Ruby Ridge, Idaho.

The government will cover up or claim to be justified every treasonous act it commits. Short of rousting law-abiding gun owners out of our sleep, forcing us to sit on the edge of mass graves, and putting bullets in our brains on prime-time television, I don't know what's going to make everyone wake up and realize the government is evil and wants us all dead.
 

hot_firefighter1982

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just have a question if im open carrying and someone calls the police and the police come up to me what should i say or do when they come to me. just say i didn't theaten anyone and it is not illigal to open carry?
 

ixtow

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hot_firefighter1982 wrote:
just have a question if im open carrying and someone calls the police and the police come up to me what should i say or do when they come to me. just say i didn't theaten anyone and it is not illigal to open carry?
Same thing you would do any other time a Police Officer approaches you for no reason?

Some people hardline them, give name and refuse to speak. Others don't. Just be aware of your rights and don't give them up or you'll end up framed for all kinds of stuff.

That Schappelle bit about 'sprinkle some crack on him,' is no joke. I've had open alcohol containers and bags of weed planted in my car by police at least a dozen times. They're too dumb to realize I have a camera pointing at it...

They will abuse any inch you give them. So don't give them an inch to abuse. But that's just my opinion.... There are dozens of threads on the subject here already, no need to further hijack this one.
 

Fetus

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hot_firefighter1982 wrote:
just have a question if im open carrying and someone calls the police and the police come up to me what should i say or do when they come to me. just say i didn't theaten anyone and it is not illigal to open carry?

what state are you in ??
 

vnvet646872

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loxety wrote:
reverenddan wrote:
I will tell you all right now that Home Depot will NOT allow open carry in their store.

I cannot imagine them amending their rules to allow customers to open carry.

I've open carried there a lot.. never a problem.
I have been told that our local Home Depot here in NY State does not allow CC in its Store. Now this is pretty silly since CONCEALED CARRY is just that ! But what the heck, I do it all the time so I guess I'm breaking their rules whenever I enter the place. And looking at some of the Employee's they hire I feel much safer. L.O.L. :dude:
 

HankT

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ixtow wrote:
HankT wrote:
ixtow wrote:
The NRA have made it abundantly clear that they support a paid-for, government-issued PRIVILEGE, not anyone's rights of any kind at all.
That's a pretty broad accusation.

NOT

ANY
ONE's rights of

ANY KIND

AT ALL.



Can you provide some of your justification for that kind of absolutist position?

An example,perhaps...an argument with some details...

Something?

Have you ever been a member of the NRA, by the way?

Yes I can, HankT.

The NRA supports the Brady Check on all gun purchases. This alone transforms the Right into a Privilege because one has to beg for permission and pay. Support of concealed Carry is another example of the same. The NRA virtually authored the '86 Ban. Etc... They support government regulation of all firearms to such a degree that it is no longer a Right. They are their own 'only ones.'


Does the NRA support a "Brady check" on private gun purchases between private parties who are residents of the same state? That's news to me.

Fail.





ixtow wrote:

No, I have never been a member. What's that got to do with anything?

But you already knew all of this. You're just trolling, as usual.

Really, must I cite to everything you disagree with or pretend not to know already? I wasn't put on this earth to be your babysitter, nor you mine.
Have you ever been a member of GOA?
 

Thundar

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Hey, have you ever looked up "self licking ice cream cone" in the dictionary. I did the other day. I was very surprized to find an NRA bumper sticker right there.

The NRA works hard to get people's money. seems like we wouldn't have RKBA issues if they worked as hard for all of the right.





I like bashing the NRA for its self serving actions.. It puts us in the company of great minds like Alan Gura.
 

ixtow

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HankT wrote:
Does the NRA support a "Brady check" on private gun purchases between private parties who are residents of the same state? That's news to me.

Fail.

Have you ever been a member of GOA?
1) Look at that long list of conditionals, and you still think you've made a point of any kind? The NRA supports the NICS. Period.

2) Have you ever been a member of Trolls Anonymous? Have you ever been a member of HSN? Have you ever been a member of ______?

Facepalm.
 
M

McX

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hey! i didn't see mechanix ltd. on the open carry friendly list!
 
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