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Thread: Close friend of mine draws down on a badguy (caught on surveillance camera)

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    This is raw footage taken from news 9 which shows a very good LEO friend of mine trying to escort someone off the train. The suspect had no ticket and refused to pay for his fare so he was forced to leave. He refused to cooperate and after my friend forced him off the train, everything broke loose. The news story that aired this video slanted the story to make it look like my friend used too much force. If you were a citizen and this happened to you, or you were a LEO, would you have done the same thing? Being that this is my friend who I see at church every week and hang out with I am bias so I want a neutral opinion. You will notice from the video my friend ducks but still gets punched in the back of the neck.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssKHK8hzWN4

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Without other comments - only answering the specific question - I see no use excessive force.

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    I see, a huge disparity of force- that guy is huge. He appears to be trying to fight the cop (resisting arrest). Dunno if that makes it a felony where you live or if a felony is even necessary for a cop to draw down. Here in AZ assault against a PO is ag. assault and deadly force is justified IIRC.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    No excessive force.
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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    I agree with the others. The aggressor was a lot bigger than your friend and attacked him as he was getting off. I see no unlawful use of force here.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    I believe I would have done the same as your friend.

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    Your friend was lucky he didn't lose control of that situation, that guy was huge and was swinging pretty well at your buddy. He's lucky he didn't get tazed or whacked in the knee with an asp. At the very least he should have been put down on the ground flat until he was cuffed. I'd say the perp got away lightly. It's true what they say about the gun being the equalizer. Once he saw the muzzle facing his way he gave up the fight right then and there.

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    I do not consider that an excessive use of force. The guy was illegally riding the train and refused the conductors order to leave. When your LEO friend showed up he likely could have just got his stuff and walked off the train with no repercussions. Your buddy was completely in the right to drag this bum off the train, and completely justified in drawing on him after the bum assaulted the LEO.

  9. #9
    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Looks to me like the guy was trying to throw knees at your friend. And the disparity of force. That dude is massive. No excessive force seen here.
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Looks like a completely justifiable, and well-controlled and appropriate use of force.

    The attacker is lucky this happened in NC, where the police are generally pretty good at getting control of a situation without actually USING force. Had this happened in NY, or CA, or IL, this guy would have been tazed and batoned as a matter of course...

    Your buddy did a very good job regaining control of a situation that could have gotten VERY bad very quickly.
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    Regular Member OPS MARINE's Avatar
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    I see no use of excessive force. give the odds, the locale and the situation, I would have done the same thing. You cannot fight a Peace Officer in uniform and expect to get a hand slap or free pass. The aggressor was bigger, and although he probably wouldn't have won the fight, there is no reason to continue to take this person on and draw out the incident.
    "Most people respect the badge. Everybody... respects the gun."

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    Media strikes again! This guy should feel very lucky your friend had control. Looks like he got up BEFORE being cuffed.....not sure about that one...at least the B.G. took orders swiftly....no shots fired.....good job!

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    That's a gnarly video. I agree, doesn't look excessive to me.
    I love how fast he drops as soon as the firearm comes out.

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    I don't know the law in this instance, but common sense says that the officer took the necessary action to protect himself.

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    Seems reasonable to me. Would the BG rather be maced or get a baton to legs?

    It is good that the situation did not escalate further, and all parties involved were unharmed.

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    NOT excessive use of force; the guy was fighting with him. Your friend had no way to know if this man was armed or not, and being under attack is a good reason to draw. That suspect wasn't thinking clearly, IMO. Maybe he was protesting being pulled off the train because he didn't collect his things, but if that was the case, he should have done so and exited when told. In a case like this, an officer that failed to draw could become a victim all too quickly.

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    Godscreation wrote:
    The news story that aired this video slanted the story to make it look like my friend used too much force.
    What did the news story have in it that slanted the story to make it look like excessive force?


    Force used looked reasonable to me.

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    HankT wrote:
    Godscreation wrote:
    The news story that aired this video slanted the story to make it look like my friend used too much force.
    What did the news story have in it that slanted the story to make it look like excessive force?


    Force used looked reasonable to me.
    Maybe they did the same thing that most of the media did with the Rodney King tape; edited it to the point where all you saw was him being hit, and taking out all the many, many times he got up and attacked ALL of those cops. ONE station where we lived at the time showed the whole thing, one evening only. King was a BIG fellow, and was continuously getting up, and swinging, quite effectively, at the cops that were trying to arrest him. Yet most of what we saw on the news (all that some saw) was him being hit, with no explanation, because of selective editing. In that case, the media promoted rioting, by misrepresenting the facts, and thus causing extreme anger when those cops were, rightly, acquitted. If the news in this case showed the cop grabbing the guy, with no conversation before, and then drawing on him, it could be slanted fairly easily, especially with the right dialogue from the talking heads.

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    Regular Member Ivan Sample's Avatar
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    I agree with others on this one. There was enough force needed to bring the situation under control. You have to be careful of the media, they want to turn things ugly when it wasn't at all. Hell if I was a citizen I would have done the same thing. Good video by the way. One for the good guy
    Capricorn

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    I too must agree that appropriate force was used. I would go further to say that I think the officer showed great restraint in his use of force. As far as the media goes, they always seem to exaggerate things (usually the wrong way) to get more viewers.

  21. #21
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    really? Seems pretty straight forward to me. I'm surprised (but happy) he didn't taze the **** out of him before cuffing him. I am always shocked to see a lone officer like this holster and cuff an individual (which it appeared he did at the end). I'd be too concerned and paranoid to chance that. I think I would wait for assistance to arrive.

    Please note I am not a cop.

    I just can't fathom how you can twist that to be excessive force. The fact is this could have turned out VERY different for the cop. He had his back to a perp who used that opportunity to attack. Thankfully the cop responded quickly and the perp didn't appear super determined or go for a gun grab. The cop wasn't excessive, he was fortunate.

    On a side note, notice how difficult a time he has holstering. This is a trained officer! It illustrates what happens to the body when you get the endorphins pumping. Anyone who does any training should take this as a big hint that just shooting at the range is barely adequate. You need to get the heart pumping and the stress level UP. (see Nutnfancy's channel on youtube, esp. his 'sledgehammer' series)
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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Looks clean to me. And you know my opinion of Cops....
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    Regular Member Hollowpoint38's Avatar
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    Appropriate force was used. I would have done the same thing. That guy was big.

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    Either your friend is short, or that man is a giant. Holy moley.

  25. #25
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    No excessive force. Technically the cop could have cuffed and stuffed him from the get-go for riding the lines without a ticket and not complying with the conductors direction to leave. Pretty sure that's trespassing.

    Instead the cop tried to give the guy a break and just wanted to escort him off the train. The scumbag decided to attack the cop. The cop rightfully drew his weapon. (If the BG would have advanced I would have supported pulling the trigger). Fortunately for all the BG dropped to the ground the second the weapon came out.

    Book 'em Dano.
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