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Thread: Madisonville Ky City Police says "NO OCING!"

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    I have a friend that wants to OC. Being the cautious type he is, he asked a city police officer if it was legal to OC. The police officer told him absolutely NOT! Went on to say that if he seen anyone OCing that he/she would immediately be arrested! Not only that, but told him it was ok to carry a weapon in the car as long as it was in its orginal box, or out of reach!!! OMG this makes me mad! Now I dont know what police officer this was because I wasnt there, but I am mad as hell over it because now my friend wont even think of OCing due to this mis-informed officer. I believe my friend as we have been friends for a long time, and he was looking very forward in buying his first weapon, and has been looking for CC classes as well. Now, he does not even want to buy a hand gun at all!
    How can I go about getting some resolve from this with out losing my temper? Do I need to call the city police station and talk directly to them? Draft a letter to mail to them? How can I go about getting them to not harrass anyone there. I will be moving there in just a few months, and I assure you that if I have my shoes on, I have my weapon / weapons on. Some concealed, some not. It just pains me that now he has been bullied into not even purchasing a weapon, much less OCing it for fear of being arrested. In his line of work, an arrest may consitute being fired. Help me out please.


    KL

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    Go to where I posted "Time For A Repost", this forum, copy and show it to your friend.OR......I can pm you with a copy.

    Saved you some time: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/35751.html

  3. #3
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    I need to get this into the police stations head. My friend will not OC if he feels threatened to do so. I am going to write the city police and see what they say about the situation.

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    If you draft a letter, I would definitely emphasize the fact that this sort of mentality is going to be a liability for their police department. After all, mistakenly arresting law abiding citizens could result in a huge lawsuit and bad PR. I would frame it in a way that doesn't come across as you threatening a lawsuit, but just a words of caution.

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    Do we have a draft template or default fill in the blank letter on here some where? I've been looking for something that some one else sent for some ideas on how to word it. Some one else may be more eloquent with words than I.

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    Wouldnt an officer arresting anyone that is just ocing, and nothing else, just for ocing on crazy charges, wouldnt they be held responsible per KRS 522.020??

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    I think they would be guilty of 522 only if they were fully aware to OC's legality. If they don't know OC is legal and they make an arrest, I don't think KRS 522 would apply. It would still be a grave mistake with a potential lawsuit.

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    My draft, feel free to critique it, add to it, remove from it, suggest away. I will email this to them some time tomorrow.

    Dear MPD,

    It was brought to my attention that a local city officer was recently questioned about open carrying in Madisonville. I am unaware of the badge number or officer's name due to the fact that this interaction did not happen with me. It did however happen with my very close friend, whom I trust explicitly.
    The officer was asked about open carry laws in Kentucky. He immediately became forceful and said that it is completely illegal to open carry in Madisonville . Furthermore he stated that if he caught my friend or anyone else open carrying in the city he would immediately arrested and detain the individual . He went on to give incorrect information about how to carry a handgun in the vehicle. The officer stated that the charges would be having a fire arm with no license (which none is needed if he/she is open carrying), disorderly conduct, or disturbing the peace.
    I would like for you to remind the officers of the Kentucky State Constitution, Section 1.
    Also KRS 65.870 :
    Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
    No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of
    regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms,
    ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.

    I would hate for Madisonville to illegally detain a citizen of Kentucky for any of the mentioned charges, as any citizen openly carrying a firearm in any area not prohibited by state law would not be breaking any law. This could bring a finical burden on an already taxed city budget if he or she won a case against the city. Any officer arresting a person for open carrying a weapon could be held responsible of his/her conduct per KRS 522.020

    522.020 Official misconduct in the first degree.
    (1) A public servant is guilty of official misconduct in the first degree when, with intent to obtain or confer a benefit or to injure another person or to deprive another person of a benefit, he knowingly:
    (a) Commits an act relating to his office which constitutes an unauthorized exercise of his official functions; or
    (b) Refrains from performing a duty imposed upon him by law or clearly inherent in the nature of his office; or
    (c) Violates any statute or lawfully adopted rule or regulation relating to his office.
    (2) Official misconduct in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor.


    I often open carry myself, and often in your city. I have never had an interaction with a city officer. I have had many great interactions with Kentucky State Police in your area, and never been detained in any way. I would like to make city officers more aware of the laws of Kentucky. I do not want to be the one that has to be arrested or detained by a mis -informed officer. Nor do I wish this on my fellow open carrying citizens of our great state of Kentucky. Thank you for your time.

    Sincerely,


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    Excellent letter! I would like to note that KY has no law against disturbing the peace (maybe there's a city ordinance?). Also, I might be inclined to cite the text of the disorderly conduct law. Following the citation, note that the law hangs on the idea that someone is INTENDING to be disorderly. OC would obviously not fall under this umbrella.

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    Excellent letter! I would like to note that KY has no law against disturbing the peace (maybe there's a city ordinance?). Also, I might be inclined to cite the text of the disorderly conduct law. Following the citation, note that the law hangs on the idea that someone is INTENDING to be disorderly. OC would obviously not fall under this umbrella.
    Correct. Remember.....right or wrong....police will sometimesdo exactly as they wish at the time.

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    edited to show this:

    I would hate for Madisonville to illegally detain a citizen of Kentucky for any of the mentioned charges, as any citizen openly carrying a firearm in any area not prohibited by state law would not be breaking any law. Kentucky also has no law about disturbing the peace. The KRS on disorderly conduct clearly states that one has to have the INTENT cause public inconvenience annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly creating a risk. Anyone not breaking any law by open carrying can not be in violation of KRS 525.060. Just carrying a weapon properly holstered, plain view shows no intent.

    KRS 525.060:
    Disorderly conduct in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct in the second degree when in a public place
    and with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or wantonly
    creating a risk thereof, he:
    (a) Engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    (b) Makes unreasonable noise;
    (c) Refuses to obey an official order to disperse issued to maintain public safety
    in dangerous proximity to a fire, hazard, or other emergency; or
    (d) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no
    legitimate purpose.
    (2) Disorderly conduct in the second degree is a Class B misdemeanor.
    This could bring a finical burden on an already taxed city budget if he or she won a case against the city. Any officer arresting a person for open carrying a weapon could be held responsible of his / her conduct perKRS 522.020


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    Another thought is to - in addition to the official complaint already in the letter - make an official request that they provide you with a statement on their position concerning this matter.
    While the letter definitely gets the point across, it will do no good for your friend's peace of mind if all you get back is a form letter stating "Thank you for your feedback, we will look into the matter." What you will need for him to be comfortable again is a signed letter stating what their policy is on OC. Obviously no city would put, in writing, an official policy that contradicts existing law (assuming they realize this). You and your friend could even keep it in your pocket(s) while OC'ing. I'm sure any over-zealous officer would realize he'd better double-check when he sees the chief's signature on a letter presented to him by the "suspect".

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    Very good idea Hectate! It shall be done!

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    The Response:

    Dear Citizen Lloyd,

    I am responding to your e-mail concerning open carry. There is a reason that we in law enforcement cannot use hearsay it is just that. I feel confident that some of the conversation may have been misconstrued. I can assure you that EVERY officer with the Madisonville Police are fully aware of the open carry laws, carrying weapons in vehicles provisions and also would never have mentioned something like “disturbing the peace” which is not a valid KRS. If you would like to make a complaint of the officers “forceful attitude” you are welcome to call and talk to that officer’s supervisor or make a written complaint at City Hall. Either way poor attitude is not tolerated and we will address it. Please feel free to contact me ifi you should have any further questions or concerns.

    Wade Williams, CPT
    Administrative Division
    Commanding



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    Sounds good enough to me. Tell your friend to memorize that name and if he gets harassed to request that the LEO contacts him immediately.

    There's a good chance the original LEO your friend spoke to has his own agenda and succeeded in misinforming your friend. Tell your friend to never ask the police for legal advice, he would be better served by asking a lawyer if he can't look the laws up himself.

    Better yet, have him join us here. There are a few of us that have a good understanding of the laws and he can ask away.

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    I have been telling him just that! I'm sure that I can convince him to continue his pursuit in open carrying a hand gun, but its going to take some time. I will be moving there at the end of the school year, and he will see me avidly ocing, so it may entice others to do the same.

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    Yeah just take your time and work with him. You may end up saving his life one day.

    Being at the spearhead in an area is stressful at first, I had never seen anyone OC before I started and the first few weeks were rough. It does take a lot of courage to overcome the fear initially, even when you know the law. Hell, I use to get my wallet out and have it in my hand before I even walked in a store at first, lol. I think it helped to put people at ease.

    A few things I would suggest;

    1) Make him understand that he has to have complete situational awareness when OCing.

    2) He HAS to train with his firearm. Personally, if I were in a store and something went down, I don't want to accidentally get shot by an untrained sheepdog. I'm going to hit my target, I expect the same from my fellow OCers'.

    3) Have a positive demeanor, lot's of yes sirs and no ma'ams and the like go a long way to maintaining a good public image of the OCer.

    Good luck and be safe.

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    Thanks! I shoot with him often, and in doing so have talked about gun safety with him. He is an outstanding shooter, with my weapons... Now I'm in the process of talking him in to getting on of his own, and not being afraid to OC. He was right there until this interaction. I'm sure now that I have forward the information I gathered from this GREAT site to him so he can read it himself, he will come around.
    I agree with the yes sirs and no ma'ams going along way! Its hard for some people to get over the fact that a holstered weapon can not harm them. Once you start talking and are really nice to them, they stop looking at it, and begin to realize you are just a person standing there who happens to have a gun SECURED to his side, instead of a man with a gun standing there. Its on in presentation I guess.
    I'll get him on this site sooner or later! Hopefully in the next few days!
    Did I mention we have a GREAT site here? < FULL of information, and great people! Thanks again.

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    Langzaiguy--Harlow v Fitzgerald 457 U.S. 800 requires/mandates that ALL public officials be personally responsible for knowing the law which governs their actions as public officials--they can not claim ignorance of the law!

    So the officer who arrests someone for OC is breaking the law and can be(and some have been) held liable for doing this very thing. See St. John v Alamagordo Police Dept. This is from the 10th circuit.

  20. #20
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    send a letter to the chief, get a response, get the name of the cop that told you no oc, and send him a copy of the chief's response. be civil, you are a law abiding open carrier.

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    @4sooth: Thank you, I was not aware of that court precedent! However, this is where I'm coming from: Yes, a police officer is responsible for knowing the law. A false arrest--no matter if the officer thinks he is following the law or not can result in a CIVIL suit. In KY, according to KRS 522.020, if an LEO if it can result in a CRIMINAL trial (and of course a civil trial too.)

    In other words, it's bad enough if an LEO falsely arrests someone not knowing the law. In KY, it's doubly bad if an LEO falsely arrests someone knowing the law.

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    You guys are awesome!

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    Louisiana has this--R.S14:46.1 False Imprisonment while armed with a deadly weapon. Up to 10 years at hard labor, whopping fine and some jail time is mandatory.

    Arresting someone for something that is not a crime causes the officer to not have color of law. Since most police are armed--a serious crime has been committed. And I have yet to meet an officer who knows of this statute.

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    It would not surprise me if an officer said that to your friend. I live about 11 miles south of madisonville and i happened upon this site with my Iphone just playing around. I think it would be good if people around madisonvlle started OCing because i hardly ever see anyone doing it around here. I think most people are scared of local law enforcement trying to arrest them which is sad because there supposed to be here to "serve and protect". Do you have to be 21 to legally open carry?

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    Hopkins County FF 1121 wrote:
    It would not surprise me if an officer said that to your friend. I live about 11 miles south of madisonville and i happened upon this site with my Iphone just playing around. I think it would be good if people around madisonvlle started OCing because i hardly ever see anyone doing it around here. I think most people are scared of local law enforcement trying to arrest them which is sad because there supposed to be here to "serve and protect". Do you have to be 21 to legally open carry?
    Nope, 18.

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