• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Florida Permit Requirements, Remove The Right To Bear Arms!

OC4me

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
750
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
imported post

brboyer wrote:
OC4me wrote:
Wait until the McDonald decision is handed down in June.

To get 'standing' to sue over the license requirement (without actually getting arrested), one merely has to send in a completed concealed weapons application package without payment. When you get a denial back due to lack of the fee being included...you then have legal standing to sue and challenge the licensing requirement (at least the imposition of the fee itself being an unconstitutional infringement of your right to bear arms).

This is the far better way to get the requisite legal'standing' to challenge the law.

Dick Heller was successuful in getting standing to sue the District of Columbia in this way. He applied and was denied...thus giving him standing. No need to get arrested first!
That would only give you standing to challenge the fee, not the licensing requirement itself, nor 790.01.
You are correct, a challenge would be unlikely to strike down the entire licensing act, but the point is that the licensing requirements can be attacked (without being arrested first)one piece at at time. Strike down the pay-fee-then-exercise-right requirement and we have a powerful precedant to further challenge different portions of Florida's carry license.
 

brboyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
412
Location
Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
imported post

Jared wrote:
brboyer wrote:
Lets break this down item by item:





It's not a permit, it's a license. The Florida Constitution states that the manner of carry may be regulated by law. The US Constitution's second amendment has not yet been incorporated via the 14th to the states yet.

If you cannot afford to pay for a concealed weapons permit, itis illegal for you to carry a gun, and protect your life!
No it's only illegal to carry a gun in violation of the laws authorized by the Florida and US Constitutions.Plus you do not need a gun to protect yourself.



First off, the license does exclude people. If you reside outside of the United States or if you are a non-immigrant, you are excluded from excercising this right; however, such people still enjoy jury trials, free speech etc. Also, some people may be eligible to purchase a firearm but not eligible for a CWFL, that is unconstitutional as well.

If a right is licensed, then you have a right to the license. The license does more than just screen out prohibited possessors, it goes too far.

You don't need a gun or a concealed weapon to protect yourself, just as you don't need to exercise free speech on the internet, because you can use the newspaper, verbal communication.

The cost of the license is a problem, if you had a free speech license, how much would you charge for it????

People love to point to parade permits, they are inexpensive and they are also needed because the cause for public roads to be blocked off; by carrying an arm, you are not hindering anyone else as one would be by having a public road blocked off due to a parade.
I was simply pointing out that this right has not been incorporated against the states yet, and the State Constitution allows for restrictions on it. I don't agree with it, but we either have to live with it or work to change it.
 

Teckniec

New member
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
1
Location
, ,
imported post

If anyone's interested I think I found a loophole. You can look up these statutes yourself and tell me if you think it doesn't make sense. Under 790.001 a law enforcement officer is classified among other things a militia. Now militias are not ran by the state they are ran by the people. So you can start your own (one man if you choose) militia and you are classified as a law enforcement officer. Now in 790.051 Law enforcement officers are except from licensing when acting on duty. So if a cop says anything about your gun you can just say that you are a member of a militia and your on duty and they cannot do anything about it. Not to mention they use the word "person" if you look up the definition in a law book a person is defined as

Person - Oran's Dictionary of the Law, West Group 1999, defines Person as: 1. A human being (a "natural" person). 2. A corporation (an "artificial" person). Corporations are treated as persons in many legal situations. Also, the word "person" includes corporations in most definitions in this dictionary. 3. Any othe...r "being" entitled to sue as a legal entity (a government, an association, etc).

So You can interpret the law so that when they say person they are referring to a corporation. The artificial person they created when you where born and not the flesh and blood person that is you.

I wrote a letter of understanding and intent that I plan to carry at all times to give to whoever want it.

[align=center]Notice of understanding and intent[/align]
It is to my understanding under the statutes of the state of Florida that I am within my rights as a member of a militia to carry a firearm either openly or concealed as a militia member on duty. I am classified under statute 790.001 as a law enforcement officer and under 790.051 I am within my right to carry and use a firearm for enforcing the law and for self defense without the requirement of a license while on duty.
I carry my firearm for the purpose of enforcing law and self-defense. As a member of a militia I am always on duty to protect myself and others around me who may need protecting.

790.001Definitions.--As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:
(8)"Law enforcement officer" means:
(c)Members of the Armed Forces of the United States, the organized reserves, state militia, or Florida National Guard, when on duty, when preparing themselves for, or going to or from, military duty, or under orders;
790.051 Exemption from licensing requirements; law enforcement officers.--Law enforcement officers are exempt from the licensing and penal provisions of this chapter when acting at any time within the scope or course of their official duties or when acting at any time in the line of or performance of duty.
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

Assessment of any fee for the government contrivance of permit in the exercise of an enumerated right as recognized by US Citizensis unconstitutional.

"You do not need a gun to defend yourself?" Hello? The2A's reference to 'arms' covers any/all bearable arms. However... force disparity (and common sense) would dictate the old adage of not bringing a knife to a gunfight. The problem with FL politics is that the state government was hijacked by Yankee carpet bagger transplants fron NY/NJ goin' back to the '60's when I lived there (Seminole County).
 

NewZealandAmerican

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
348
Location
Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb
imported post

brboyer wrote:
smttysmth02gt wrote:
brboyer wrote:


Lets break this down item by item:

You do not have to hit a target, simply show proficiency with a firearm.

It's not a permit, it's a license. The Florida Constitution states that the manner of carry may be regulated by law. The US Constitution's second amendment has not yet been incorporated via the 14th to the states yet.

You need to have standing first. So go out without having a CWFL and get arrested; get convicted; lose; appeal to DCA; lose; appeal to Florida Supreme Court; lose; appeal to US supreme court; win. Simple enough.

No it's only illegal to carry a gun in violation of the laws authorized by the Florida and US Constitutions.Plus you do not need a gun to protect yourself.
Weak.

Either way you have to "prove" yourself prior to being "afforded" 2nd amendment rights.

I've never heard anyone argue that one does not have the right to own and carry arms due to the 14th amendment. Strange.

Permit: a written order granting special permission to do something.

License: formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.

Same thing. Permission slip.

Correct on the crappy court system.

Nice to know that you can tell the future and decide what weaponry will be needed in the event of an attack. You should give lessons on that power of yours. I'd love to have first hand knowledge of an impending attack on myself and/or my family.


You obviously don't believe that it's wise to be precise with dealing with legalities.

Also you have an obvious lank of understanding regarding Constitutional law.

Here's a hint:

The incorporation of the Bill of Rights (or incorporation for short) is the process by which American courts have applied portions of the US Bill of Rightsto thestates. In the past the Bill of Rights was held only to apply to the federal government. Under the incorporation doctrine certain provisions of the Bill of Rights now also apply to the states, by virtue of the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution.
The real truth is that we don't get RIGHTS from the Constitution the government or anyone, we have IN-ALIENABLE RIGHTS yes including the in-alienable RIGHT to defend ourselves with a gun. In-alienable rights predate any govt and constitution, The Constitution and Bill Of Rights were established to protect allof our pre-existing RIGHTS.

However I do agree with youthat in the meantime one can still get in a lot of legal (unconstitutional) trouble with the state of Florida unless at sometime we have a critical mass of we the people to actually force our government to obey the constitution and Bill of Rights, honor their Oath Of Officeperiod that we can then exercise all of our in-alienable rights without permission and without a license.

Power is suppose to flow in one direction ONLY from We the People (Sovereign) to county govt then to state govt then federal govt! We are the Master and the govt is the servant so we should treat our public officials, politicians, law enforcement etclike our servants, our employees, not the other way around. Like i said we need critical mass to correct the mess we are in when it comes to freedom and the right to carry a gun without a permit (concealed & open carry)in all 50 states!

Below is an article about RIGHTS vs Privileges by Michael Badnarik

Zero Protection


I'm very grateful to RepublicMagazine.com for giving me this opportunity to share what I've learned about the Constitution over the last twenty-five years. I hope this column will help restore the principles that led to the Constitution, a document which has been ignored, abandoned, and violated for too long.

You may be shocked to discover that I absolutely hate the phrase "Constitutional rights". That's because neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights has anything at all to do with your rights. If they burn the First Amendment, are you going to give up your freedom of religion? I don't think so. If they shred the Second Amendment, are you going to voluntarily turn in your guns, and risk being slaughtered en masse like the victims of the Holocaust? I certainly hope not. Please disabuse yourself of the habit of using that nasty, misleading phrase.

While I'm at it, I want you to stop pretending that the Constitution even protects your rights. It does no such thing! Imagine standing on a railroad track in the path of an oncoming locomotive, holding up a copy of the Constitution for "protection". That's how much protection the Constitution gives you. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

You think I'm kidding?! I am not using hyperbole to emphasize a point. How much protection did the Constitution give us against FDR's socialist New Deal? None. How much protection has it given you against the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, or the Real ID Act? Zero. What will the Second Amendment do to prevent ATF agents from kicking down your door to confiscate your firearms? Zip. Nada. Nothing at all.

Do I have your attention, yet?

The reason we are standing chest deep in the septic tank of today's political process is because we've lost sight of the fact that "We the People" are supposed to be protecting the Constitution, not the other way around. We complain about the problems in Washington D.C. without facing up to the fact that Congress is only the symptom. We the People are the source of the problem. That is going to change. Right here. Right now.

All of our political problems can be traced back to a single, simple, misunderstanding. Americans have forgotten (or never knew) the difference between RIGHTS and PRIVILEGES. See (http://www.constitutionpreservation.org/sites/default/files/files-misc/chapter_two.pdf)

A right is something that you can do without asking for permission, such as walking back and forth on your property. A privilege is something you require permission to do, such as walking back and forth across my property. I may grant you the privilege of walking across my property - BUT - I can revoke that privilege any time I wish. Rights and privileges are opposites! Either you need permission - or you don't. You can't lose "some" of your virginity, or be "a little bit" pregnant. You either are or you're not. There's no middle ground.

 

jtsoup

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1
Location
, ,
imported post

Mr. Patriot,
I am in favor of pursuing legal action against the state as well. Florida's state constitution is an obstruction to the peoples right to keep and bear arms. If you wish to contact me in regards to this my email is jtsoup@yahoo.com! I would definitely like to see this so-called law here in Florida changed.
JT
 

4sooth

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
126
Location
, Louisiana, USA
imported post

The constitution of the state of Louisiana recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Florida's would seem to. Having in mind that the Supreme Court has ruled that rights may not be converted to privileges and then licensed or have fees attached to exercise that right(U.S. v Miller)then some way must be available to FREELY exercise that right.

Louisiana statutes only restrict the way the right is exercised. We may openly carry a firearm but must obtain a permit to conceal a weapon. This would seem to meet the requirement for some free way to exercise the right.

Florida does not allow the carrying of a firearm in ANY MANNER without a license. I do not believe this would stand a strong challenge in the courts.
 

brboyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
412
Location
Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
imported post

4sooth wrote:
The constitution of the state of Louisiana recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Florida's would seem to. Having in mind that the Supreme Court has ruled that rights may not be converted to privileges and then licensed or have fees attached to exercise that right(U.S. v Miller)then some way must be available to FREELY exercise that right.

Louisiana statutes only restrict the way the right is exercised. We may openly carry a firearm but must obtain a permit to conceal a weapon. This would seem to meet the requirement for some free way to exercise the right.

Florida does not allow the carrying of a firearm in ANY MANNER without a license. I do not believe this would stand a strong challenge in the courts.

You are wrong on both counts.



790.25(3) provides many exceptions to the general prohibition on Open Carry.

The Florida Constitution applies in Florida. It provides for statutory restriction on the manner of carry. The US 2A has not been incorporated against the states yet, so no lawsuit would prevail in Federal court, yet.
 

CaptainDan

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
197
Location
Marrero, Louisiana, USA
imported post

Just to let you guys know, (AND YOU'RE GONNA LOVE THIS!) Louisiana ia AN OPEN CARRY STATE ! NO LISC. OR PERMIT OR general begging of any kind to carry a sidearm in plain sight (on your hip in a holster) WE DO IT ALL DAY EVERYDAY! Sure we ocasionally get harassed by un educated LEO but nothing ever comes of it. One man in particular was arrested in a mall and sued and WON , Mark M. come to the La. page and check it out. The only time you need a lisc. is to conceal. Also La. has the castle doctrine that dictates your vehicle is an extension of your home, which means your pistol can be cocked, locked and in your hand and it is LEGAL. As long as you arent "brandishing" you are breaking no laws. I have carried every day every where I go (full size 1911, cocked and locked) and have been hassled a hand ful of times with no ill effects, even got an apology from one officer becouse of his "rookie" partner. Every once in a blue moon some manager will ask you to take your sidearm to the car , which he has a right to do, being private property, but THATS ALL HE CAN DO. We ocasionally have get togethers for lunch or a breakfast and everyone carries, IN PLAIN VIEW on the hip. Some are still shaky but eventually , once you carry at Wal Mart or pizza hut in New Orleans or wherever, it's no big deal here, after all IT'S LEGAL HERE.

I am originally from Fla. and was just checking out you guy's page. I didn't know it was different there as I never felt the need to carry until I moved to the violent crime capitol of the U.S. I love it here but it's a rough place to live.

By the way You DO NOT HAVE TO BE A RESIDENT OF LA. TO OPEN CARRY HERE! Anyone who can LEGALLY buy a firearm can open carry in Louisiana.No matter what state you reside in. Cool huh?

So when you visit the Big EasyCome Pak'in:celebrate
 
Top