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Thread: Loop hole

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    I have talked with (and writen) two ATF agents and two ATF attorneys. They have all confirmed my original question and are sending a responce.

    John doe buys a few AR frames. (box 18- Pistol, Rifle or Frame) He is not a manufacture and he doesn’t intend to sell them. (although he could later)

    John doe went through the NICS check and he does not have a CPL.

    On his way home with his frames he decides to stop off at XYZ gun store where he finds a great deal on a AR pistol upper.

    He buys the upper and all the other parts to make an AR pistol.

    Goes home and builds a pistol.

    John Doe has not broken any laws and has his pistol without the waiting period.

    ATF Office of Public Government Affairs

    99 New York Ave NE

    WA DC 20226

    Room 55144

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    He did not buy a "pistol" he bought a "frame" which later turned into a pistol. He still did undergo a federal NICS check. The waiting period applies on pistolsbecause of state requirements, not federal. ATFE does not care, nor should they.Mr. Doe passed their background check. I could see a WA state or local agencyhaving a hissy fit over it, but then again, I DO see them having hissy fits over a lot of things.

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    Just as an FYI they are usually called receivers. I understand that the ATF calls them frames, just sayin.

    It's not a loophole, at least here. I haven't run across a shop yet that will sell a lower to someone who is under 21 for this exact reason, that it is legal to make a pistol from it.

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    Anyone is legal to build a pistol off of a frame/receiver that was never assembled as a rifle. I know this because I have had an AK pistol project going for some time now. It's not even a loop hole, it is the way the law is written. It is why a 10/22 pistol is legal as long as the receiver was never made as a rifle.It is not even new, I've known about for better than 10 years.

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    Where were you guys 8 months ago? When I lastbroughtthis up "me building an AR pistol from a frame that was not purchased as a pistol" people freaked out and said I was going to Jail!

    I just thought it interesting that you do not need a CPL and you do not need to wait and now....are you saying that you do NOT need to be 21 to do this?


    My bad, I guess you didn't say that.


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    StatTheCat wrote:
    Where were you guys 8 months ago? When I last*brought*this up "me building an AR pistol from a frame that was not purchased as a pistol" people freaked out and said I was going to Jail!

    I just thought it interesting that you do not need a CPL and you do not need to wait and now....are you saying that you do NOT need to be 21 to do this?


    My bad, I guess you didn't say that.
    Anyone that said you were going to go to jail for building an AR pistol out of a virgin receiver is not very well versed on the law. You do not need a CPL and you do not need to be 21 because you are not buying a pistol. You are buying a virgin receiver and an upper assembly and assembling a pistol. No one sold you a complete pistol they simply sold you pistol components.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    StatTheCat wrote:
    Where were you guys 8 months ago? When I lastbroughtthis up "me building an AR pistol from a frame that was not purchased as a pistol" people freaked out and said I was going to Jail!

    I just thought it interesting that you do not need a CPL and you do not need to wait and now....are you saying that you do NOT need to be 21 to do this?


    My bad, I guess you didn't say that.
    Anyone that said you were going to go to jail for building an AR pistol out of a virgin receiver is not very well versed on the law. You do not need a CPL and you do not need to be 21 because you are not buying a pistol. You are buying a virgin receiver and an upper assembly and assembling a pistol. No one sold you a complete pistol they simply sold you pistol components.
    You are saying- Anyone (Poosharker) under the age of 21 can legally own an AR pistol? As long as they built it from a frame?

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    You are saying- Anyone (Poosharker) under the age of 21 can legally own an AR pistol? As long as they built it from a frame?
    Yes, anyone 18-20 can own ANY pistol in WA., they just can't buy one from a dealer.

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    911Boss wrote:
    StatTheCat wrote:
    You are saying- Anyone (Poosharker) under the age of 21 can legally own an AR pistol? As long as they built it from a frame?
    Yes, anyone 18-20 can own ANY pistol in WA., they just can't buy one from a dealer.
    However you still can't carry it loaded in public till your 21

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    clip on the hip

    Mag didn't rime

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    M1Gunr wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    StatTheCat wrote:
    You are saying- Anyone (Poosharker) under the age of 21 can legally own an AR pistol? As long as they built it from a frame?
    Yes, anyone 18-20 can own ANY pistol in WA., they just can't buy one from a dealer.
    *
    However you still can't carry it loaded in public till your 21
    They cannot carry it unloaded either unless they fall under certain exemptions.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.240
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    Unloaded in a fanny pack anybody? Already have one legal opinion supporting that, but we're hoping to get AG opinion also.



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    OK, I was going to start a thread, but my question falls under this topic (roughly).
    If I want to convert a rifle to a bullpup style (with a kit), does it still have to meet minimum length requirements? The barrel length won't change, just the overall length. And is this considered gunsmithing in any way? (I know there's certain restrictions of building/modifying guns, I just don't know them)

    Springfield SOCOM16, and the kit is a Bulldog762 from www.shortrifles.com

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    Poosharker wrote:
    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    Unloaded in a fanny pack anybody? Already have one legal opinion supporting that, but we're hoping to get AG opinion also.
    I would not push it. I do not think the intent was to allow you to carry like that and do not think a judge would lean in your favor. I know the officers more than likely would not.

    What legal opinion do you have to support it?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Nivek wrote:
    OK, I was going to start a thread, but my question falls under this topic (roughly).
    If I want to convert a rifle to a bullpup style (with a kit), does it still have to meet minimum length requirements? The barrel length won't change, just the overall length. And is this considered gunsmithing in any way? (I know there's certain restrictions of building/modifying guns, I just don't know them)

    Springfield SOCOM16, and the kit is a Bulldog762 from www.shortrifles.com
    I have never seen a law in Wa. that restricts the overall length, just the barrel length. If there was you would not be able to purchase a bullpup design in our state.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Just did some research, and it's a Federal Law that worries me. Minimum rifle length is 26"... a bullpup SOCOM will be shorter. Overall length is 37.25 inches, and the bullpup kit is supposed to shorten the rifle ~13 inches. Hmm...

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    joeroket wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    Unloaded in a fanny pack anybody? Already have one legal opinion supporting that, but we're hoping to get AG opinion also.
    I would not push it. I do not think the intent was to allow you to carry like that and do not think a judge would lean in your favor. I know the officers more than likely would not.

    What legal opinion do you have to support it?
    Got it from Olypendrew, a lawyer on the board here. He said it would be legal in the book, they still might try funny charges.


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    Poosharker wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    Unloaded in a fanny pack anybody? Already have one legal opinion supporting that, but we're hoping to get AG opinion also.
    I would not push it. I do not think the intent was to allow you to carry like that and do not think a judge would lean in your favor. I know the officers more than likely would not.

    What legal opinion do you have to support it?
    Got it from Olypendrew, a lawyer on the board here. He said it would be legal in the book, they still might try funny charges.
    Interesting. I would have to see the intent of the legislature. I would wager that it was to keep persons 18-20 from carrying a pistol at all that could be accessible. The thing to remember is that legislative intent does not change just because society and technology change.

    Drew? Care to share your thoughts? I would be very interested in your view of this.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    Unloaded in a fanny pack anybody? Already have one legal opinion supporting that, but we're hoping to get AG opinion also.
    I would not push it. I do not think the intent was to allow you to carry like that and do not think a judge would lean in your favor. I know the officers more than likely would not.

    What legal opinion do you have to support it?
    Got it from Olypendrew, a lawyer on the board here. He said it would be legal in the book, they still might try funny charges.
    Interesting. I would have to see the intent of the legislature. I would wager that it was to keep persons 18-20 from carrying a pistol at all that could be accessible. The thing to remember is that legislative intent does not change just because society and technology change.

    Drew? Care to share your thoughts? I would be very interested in your view of this.
    funny that you think the llegeslative intent of .060 is to keep "18-20" yr olds from carrying an unloaded gun in a particular fashion!
    because it clearly proclaims that it legal for ANY PERSON regardless of age to carry an unloaded gun in that fashion!!!
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    Nivek wrote:
    Just did some research, and it's a Federal Law that worries me. Minimum rifle length is 26"... a bullpup SOCOM will be shorter. Overall length is 37.25 inches, and the bullpup kit is supposed to shorten the rifle ~13 inches. Hmm...
    Do you count the two inch flash hider?

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    Nivek wrote:
    Overall length is 37.25 inches, and the bullpup kit is supposed to shorten the rifle ~13 inches. Hmm...
    Do you count the two inch flash hider?
    Only if it is permanently attached, then you can count it's length into the total.
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    The SOCOM has a permanent muzzle brake which make it just over the minimum length

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    Nivek wrote:
    Just did some research, and it's a Federal Law that worries me. Minimum rifle length is 26"... a bullpup SOCOM will be shorter. Overall length is 37.25 inches, and the bullpup kit is supposed to shorten the rifle ~13 inches. Hmm...
    Do you count the two inch flash hider?
    You can count it only if it is permenately attached, AKA welded on.

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    Wish I had gone with a pinned flash hider to reach minimum barrel length...

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    I know for receivers you have to be 21. I went to a gun store over in ID and purchased a RRA AR-15 receiver. He had to have it shipped over to an FFL here in WA. I didn't really think anything of it at the time, and when it came time to transfer the FFL didn't think it would be an issue either. Long story short, when he called the ATF for the NCIC check they started to give him the clearance number or whatever. Then they stopped and asked once again for my DOB. He gave it to them again and they said since I was 20 they couldn't allow the transfer. After he got off the phone we talked about it for a bit and that it seemed a bit weird since I was planning on building a rifle the receiver didn't have "pistol only" stamped on it. He called the ATF agent in Spokane, and after phone tag for a week or two we confirmed that the ATF requires you be 21 to have a receiver transferred-- apparently since it CAN be made into a pistol. So, I would assume that, at least at the federal level, receivers are treated as pistols unless you actually turn it into a rifle.

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