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Thread: Michigan 6-Year-Old Suspended From School for Making Gun With Hand

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    As I commented to my sometimes correspondent, John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime;

    Zero tolerance is politically correct code for thoughtlessness, perhaps hiding the lack of critical thinking capability.

    How much new material is there in the Fourth Edition, enough to make replacing my First Edition worthwhile?

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    We need to start zero-tolerating stupidity.When I was a kid, "stop that and sit down" would have been sufficient, and it ought to be so now. This is an overreaction comparable to calling out the fire department to put out the candles on a kid's birthday cake. A huge waste of time and resources that coulod have been handled with five simple words from a teacher. Instead, multiple people get involved - and so does their pay - and records have to be kept, etc. All because some innocent little boy does what boys do.

    On the other hand, if he had been caught "playing doctor" it would probably have been OK... as long as it was with another boy....

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    I agree that stupidity should be intolerable but that would discriminate even more hugely than culture-ism. The culture wars have started and there have been some shooting battles.

    Ignorance can be cured but stupidity goes clean to the bone - so sweet. Does that not put the lie to "All men are created equal"?

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    We need to start zero-tolerating stupidity.When I was a kid, "stop that and sit down" would have been sufficient, and it ought to be so now. This is an overreaction comparable to calling out the fire department to put out the candles on a kid's birthday cake. A huge waste of time and resources that coulod have been handled with five simple words from a teacher. Instead, multiple people get involved - and so does their pay - and records have to be kept, etc. All because some innocent little boy does what boys do.

    On the other hand, if he had been caught "playing doctor" it would probably have been OK... as long as it was with another boy....
    and ...

    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    As I commented to my sometimes correspondent, John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime;
    Zero tolerance is politically correct code for thoughtlessness, perhaps hiding the lack of critical thinking capability.

    How much new material is there in the Fourth Edition, enough to make replacing my First Edition worthwhile?
    Amen to both of you. Both PC and Zero Tolerance have long been out of hand ...

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I agree that stupidity should be intolerable but that would discriminate even more hugely than culture-ism. The culture wars have started and there have been some shooting battles.

    Ignorance can be cured but stupidity goes clean to the bone - so sweet. Does that not put the lie to "All men are created equal"?
    A good point as that line "All men are created equal [by God]" is the premise that forms the foundation of "inalienable rights" and natural law" - there has always been a "class war" waged - even when the tribes were broken into "hunters" and "stick gatherers" - and the hierarchies have become infinitely more complex over the years ... in the coming years, it is Samuel Colt (or one of his contemporaries) who will again balance the equation. The test question will be simple: "Do you have something worthwhile to contribute to our group?". A "yes" answer will get you into the group for a trial run and a "no" will be met with, "sorry, keep walking". Sadly, about 75% of my contemporaries at the University will perish as they have nothing "real" to offer ... it will simply be a natural attrition cycle and the parasitic will be culled (yes, the elderly, disabled, and children fall into a different category and would be cared for where necessary). "Control" is gained by liberty stripping and fear ... ocer the last 100 or so years this has reached a tipping point in the US - many, many people have transcended fear at this point and realize that the "control" is no more than an illusion. "Open Carry" is just the beginning - eventually we will reach critical mass as a population and take back ALL of our "inalienable rights" and the house of card we call "social hierarchy" will collapse.

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    I am very pleased to make your acquaintance. Well met!

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I am very pleased to make your acquaintance. Well met!
    And you as well

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    okay, seriously, what the happened?!

    when I was this kid's age (not too long ago now, I'll be turning 20 this month) we played cops and robbers -at school, no less- with squirt guns that ACTUALLY RESEMBLED GUNS! I can't count the number of times I brought a toy laser gun to school to show my friends.

    and now THIS pile of ?!






    Zero tolerance.

    translation: Zero Intelligence!

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    He was just doing an impersonation of everyone's hero...


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    Picture of Barry Sotero e-mailed to info@ioniaschools.org

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    You guys tout critical thinking and all that, but it almost sounds like you guys are shooting at the hip with some of these responses. Take another read at the article:

    "School officials also told the paper that Mason had been warned repeatedly against pretending to aim his hand at students but continued the behavior over several months."

    Sounds to me that the school officials applied critical thinking by telling the child to stop many times and just got fed up with his continued disobedience. I wish the article would have mentioned more about the child's antics during class as it is very possible he could have just been a disruptive child, in which case, the suspension would have been warranted.

    Lets try to apply some critical thinking in this group folks

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    As a teacher, it sounds to me as though the boy was suspended for defiance, not for making a gun with his fingers. The rule may be stupid. and enforcement may be silly. However, the fix is not ignoring the rule. The fix is removing the rule.

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    onlurker wrote:
    You guys tout critical thinking and all that, but it almost sounds like you guys are shooting at the hip with some of these responses. Take another read at the article:

    "School officials also told the paper that Mason had been warned repeatedly against pretending to aim his hand at students but continued the behavior over several months."

    <snip>
    Lets try to apply some critical thinking in this group folks
    oh, believe me, I am, and when I see some proof that this is the case, I will (however grudgingly) accept this portion of the schools argument. Just because the school says it's so, don't mean it's so.

    example: a school in this region was caught altering test scores on the SAT (or whatever test it was) did they admit it? not at first, for a while they maintained that they hadn't altered a thing.

    and even if they can prove that they did warn him it doesn't make the rule he's breaking any less pants-on-head stupid.

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    Theguy wrote:

    and even if they can prove that they did warn him it doesn't make the rule he's breaking any less pants-on-head stupid.
    Of course, but it doesn't sound to me that they are bringing up the broken rule for reason of suspension, only that Fox News is making it a big deal and possibly to try to push their own sentiments on how they feel about guns in schools. The bottom line is neither sides can really say for certain who is in the right since we only have the information that was written and can only take it on face value. In either case, gun owner's own knee-jerk reactions to "zero tolerance" school policy is only bringing to light their own "zero tolerance" agenda and is not any better of a reaction to the schools had they suspended the kid the first time he made a pistol with his hand.

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    buster81 wrote:
    He was just doing an impersonation of everyone's hero...
    LOL ... good find!

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    onlurker wrote:
    You guys tout critical thinking and all that, but it almost sounds like you guys are shooting at the hip with some of these responses. Take another read at the article:

    "School officials also told the paper that Mason had been warned repeatedly against pretending to aim his hand at students but continued the behavior over several months."

    Sounds to me that the school officials applied critical thinking by telling the child to stop many times and just got fed up with his continued disobedience. I wish the article would have mentioned more about the child's antics during class as it is very possible he could have just been a disruptive child, in which case, the suspension would have been warranted.

    Lets try to apply some critical thinking in this group folks
    Fox News was not the original source - the Michigan newspaper was the original source. The article also clearly states that his actions "made other students uncomfortable" which was the reason the school officials made a big deal about it - not that there was a "rule" against it (i am sure it is lumped into that catch-all category of "disruptive behavior") - this is simply another case where someone decided they would make up a rule to fit the situation and then enforce it. Ultimately, it is no different than one of us being harassed for open carry - it "makes other people uncomfortable" so they try to make rules or bully you into stopping the action - these are the true "knee-jerk reactions". If there is an underlying story here, the school should have given that information - because they chose not to, you can rest assured that they have nothing ... the best they could manage was saying that he had done it "multiple times over a period of months" ... so what? I would be more interested in finding out more about why he was doing it ... maybe it was his way of coping with bullying that the school chooses to ignore. They will use this poor child as a "cautionary tale" for other kids ... it is all about creating a climate of fear to achieve control, just as it is in society at large.

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    The rule may be as simple as, "Follow the instructions of your teacher." If a student refuses to follow the repeated instructions of a teacher, he is being defiant. I am sure he was not suspended for a single instance of defiance. No doubt a series of consequences were tried before resorting to suspension.

    He wasn't suspended for making a gun with his fingers. He was suspended for defiance.

    Again, if it is unreasonable for the teacher to ask him to stop, the teacher should be instructed to stop asking him not to make a finger-gun. If the teacher is operating within her autonomy, then the student should be punished if he defies her.

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    eye95 wrote:
    As a teacher,
    Good for you.

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    Hogwash. You can't fail a kid, but you can suspend him for a gun finger. Maybe it wasn't a gun finger, maybe it was a hair dryer finger, or a drill finger, or a finger finger. Stupid.

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    eye95 wrote:
    The rule may be as simple as, "Follow the instructions of your teacher." If a student refuses to follow the repeated instructions of a teacher, he is being defiant. I am sure he was not suspended for a single instance of defiance. No doubt a series of consequences were tried before resorting to suspension.

    He wasn't suspended for making a gun with his fingers. He was suspended for defiance.

    Again, if it is unreasonable for the teacher to ask him to stop, the teacher should be instructed to stop asking him not to make a finger-gun. If the teacher is operating within her autonomy, then the student should be punished if he defies her.
    OK, let me be sure I am following you ...

    "Always follow the instructions of your teacher ..." - "Always follow the instructions of a police officer ..." - "The Government is always looking out for you and acting in your best interest so you should always follow their instructions" .... I am just curious, are you a sheeple or a lemming? I will also bet that people like us on a message board/forum like this frighten you, don't we? Be very careful when you send your kids to college as they may run into a "radical" like me. Each week, I "undo" what society has "done" to my students in teaching them to become conformist, automatons. I teach my students to question authority and think critically (including picking apart what I say as their professor) and how to solve problems created by corruption, ineptness, and apathy.

    Oh, it will also be comforting for you to know that I teach my own children these principles at home as well. Yes, they "follow the rules" - albeit not "blindly" - and discuss school, government, etc with me critically all the time. One of the big topics of discussion recently is how we will only answer 3 questions on the Census as that is all that the Constitution requires (Number in the house, age, gender) - wait until you see the Government response to this little bit of "exercising our rights/liberties. Here is one of my 3 year old daughter's videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0

    This Socialistic experiment promoting corruption, oppression, and tyranny that has been going on for the last 100 years is getting ready to fail. "We the people" have had enough ...

    "It is amazing that imagination can survive a formal education" - Albert Einstein

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    UP: Please do not make my arguments for me. It is unproductive.

    Yes. You follow the lawful instructions of teachers and police. If you feel they are out of line, you deal with that later. Defiance of authority, when they are acting lawfully, may make you feel morally superior, however, in the end, you will suffer and the cause for which you so nobly sacrificed yourself will suffer.

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    Wake up and smell the java (at your local Starbucks preferably): Teachers don't have any real authority anymore -- and haven't had any for years -- they only doon paper. And even then, the office (Admin) won't back you up. One reason I got out. You have to take all kinds of crap from kids (and their poor excuses for parents) with almost no recourse (and again, Admin won't back you up).

    But maybe THIS particular school should have done whatthat other (almost as inane) school did some years back: Let the kids still make "finger guns" but require them to have a school-issued permit to do so (no, I am not kidding).

    How damn sissified and STUPID Americahas been getting...I don't know of ANY other country in the world that has taken PC, naive,idiocy to such an extreme.

    -- John D.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    eye95 wrote:
    UP: Please do not make my arguments for me. It is unproductive.

    Yes. You follow the lawful instructions of teachers and police. If you feel they are out of line, you deal with that later. Defiance of authority, when they are acting lawfully, may make you feel morally superior, however, in the end, you will suffer and the cause for which you so nobly sacrificed yourself will suffer.
    I don't think that it is unproductive at all to clarify someone's position. My statements were about "blindly" (always) following the instructions of authority (have you ever seen anyone abuse their position of power?). By the way, a first grade teacher telling you not to point your finger at another student is not really giving you a "lawful" instruction but feel free to cite the legislative basis for your argument if you disagree. "Defiance" is a completely subjective term and is discretionary in it's use. There is also considerable variability in how discipline/correction is carried out - Teachers may admonish student's in a way to simply "embarrass" them in front of their classmates or not have the tolerance for a child who is not a cookie-cutter-conformist that they use any opportunity to "vent their own personal frustration" by disciplining them - and there are many other possibilities. If you have an hour, you might watch these 2 videos and learn something you didn't know. If you only have 20 minutes, watch the second video.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...33318153586646

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...;q=&hl=en#

    I only posted this article because i felt it illustrated a high level of attitudinal intolerance in our society today towards guns however, this conversation has diverged too much. i would be happy to discuss this with you further in private if you will message me.

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    cloudcroft wrote:
    I don't know of ANY other country in the world that has taken PC, naive,idiocy to such an extreme.- John D.
    Sure you do, "Great Britain."

    http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

    http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com.../DDDoA.sml.pdf

    6.8 MB 700 pages

    ETA; removed the invisible space - I hope. It took three times...and counting...four...try the second URL line. It works and I have no idea how it's different from the first. Stupid damn script.

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