Michigan 6-Year-Old Suspended From School for Making Gun With Hand

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eye95 wrote:

The rule may be as simple as, "Follow the instructions of your teacher." If a student refuses to follow the repeated instructions of a teacher, he is being defiant. I am sure he was not suspended for a single instance of defiance. No doubt a series of consequences were tried before resorting to suspension.

He wasn't suspended for making a gun with his fingers. He was suspended for defiance.

Again, if it is unreasonable for the teacher to ask him to stop, the teacher should be instructed to stop asking him not to make a finger-gun. If the teacher is operating within her autonomy, then the student should be punished if he defies her.

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OK, let me be sure I am following you ...

"Always follow the instructions of your teacher ..." - "Always follow the instructions of a police officer ..." - "The Government is always looking out for you and acting in your best interest so you should always follow their instructions" .... I am just curious, are you a sheeple or a lemming? I will also bet that people like us on a message board/forum like this frighten you, don't we? Be very careful when you send your kids to college as they may run into a "radical" like me. Each week, I "undo" what society has "done" to my students in teaching them to become conformist, automatons. I teach my students to question authority and think critically (including picking apart what I say as their professor) and how to solve problems created by corruption, ineptness, and apathy.

Oh, it will also be comforting for you to know that I teach my own children these principles at home as well. Yes, they "follow the rules" - albeit not "blindly" - and discuss school, government, etc with me critically all the time. One of the big topics of discussion recently is how we will only answer 3 questions on the Census as that is all that the Constitution requires (Number in the house, age, gender) - wait until you see the Government response to this little bit of "exercising our rights/liberties. Here is one of my 3 year old daughter's videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0

This Socialistic experiment promoting corruption, oppression, and tyranny that has been going on for the last 100 years is getting ready to fail. "We the people" have had enough ...

"It is amazing that imagination can survive a formal education" - Albert Einstein

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UP: Please do not make my arguments for me. It is unproductive.

Yes. You follow the lawful instructions of teachers and police. If you feel they are out of line, you deal with that later. Defiance of authority, when they are acting lawfully, may make you feel morally superior, however, in the end, you will suffer and the cause for which you so nobly sacrificed yourself will suffer.

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Wake up and smell the java (at your local Starbucks preferably): Teachers don't have any real authority anymore -- and haven't had any for years -- they only doon paper. And even then, the office (Admin) won't back you up. One reason I got out. You have to take all kinds of crap from kids (and their poor excuses for parents) with almost no recourse (and again, Admin won't back you up).

But maybe THIS particular school should have done whatthat other (almost as inane) school did some years back: Let the kids still make "finger guns" but require them to have a school-issued permit to do so (no, I am not kidding).

How damn sissified and STUPID Americahas been getting...I don't know of ANY other country in the world that has taken PC, naive,idiocy to such an extreme.

-- John D.

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eye95 wrote:

UP: Please do not make my arguments for me. It is unproductive.

Yes. You follow the lawful instructions of teachers and police. If you feel they are out of line, you deal with that later. Defiance of authority, when they are acting lawfully, may make you feel morally superior, however, in the end, you will suffer and the cause for which you so nobly sacrificed yourself will suffer.

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I don't think that it is unproductive at all to clarify someone's position. My statements were about "blindly" (always) following the instructions of authority (have you ever seen anyone abuse their position of power?). By the way, a first grade teacher telling you not to point your finger at another student is not really giving you a "lawful" instruction but feel free to cite the legislative basis for your argument if you disagree. "Defiance" is a completely subjective term and is discretionary in it's use. There is also considerable variability in how discipline/correction is carried out - Teachers may admonish student's in a way to simply "embarrass" them in front of their classmates or not have the tolerance for a child who is not a cookie-cutter-conformist that they use any opportunity to "vent their own personal frustration" by disciplining them - and there are many other possibilities. If you have an hour, you might watch these 2 videos and learn something you didn't know. If you only have 20 minutes, watch the second video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912&q=&hl=en#docid=8167533318153586646

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912&q=&hl=en#

I only posted this article because i felt it illustrated a high level of attitudinal intolerance in our society today towards guns however, this conversation has diverged too much. i would be happy to discuss this with you further in private if you will message me.

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cloudcroft wrote:

I don't know of ANY other country in the world that has taken PC, naive,idiocy to such an extreme.- John D.

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Sure you do, "Great Britain."

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

6.8 MB 700 pages

ETA; removed the invisible space - I hope. It took three times...and counting...four...try the second URL line. It works and I have no idea how it's different from the first. Stupid damn script.

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eye95 wrote:

UP: Please do not make my arguments for me. It is unproductive.

Yes. You follow the lawful instructions of teachers and police. If you feel they are out of line, you deal with that later. Defiance of authority, when they are acting lawfully, may make you feel morally superior, however, in the end, you will suffer and the cause for which you so nobly sacrificed yourself will suffer.

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Well, that said, it's a two-way street. I have all the respect in the world for our teachers, as they do a difficult job in often very difficult environments (funding, regulation, location); but what of defiance of authority when those enforcing it are outside of their bounds in an extra-legal manner? Blind obedience without reason or discourse only brings to mind government that will tell you what is good for you.

Or, if you like, John Carpenter's They Live... Not a poke at you at all, just an observation.

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UP: Once again, what you call clarification is actually a misstatement of what I have said. If you don't understand, ask. Please don't build a strawman and attack it.

Folks, feel free to take issue with what I have actually said. I love a good HONEST back-and-forth. If someone wants to read what I have written and ask me about it or rebut it, have at it. I will be happy to reply.

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Doug,

Link doesn't work:

Error 404| File not found

...but you're right, GB (plus CA, Australia and likely NZ) is "pansyism" at it's finest, but we're going to take those honors shortly.

-- John D.

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Okay, let's say the boy was "defiant". Back in my day, simple remedy: conference with parents or, in extreme cases a few whacks on the butt with a paddle followed by more with dad's belt at home. Why is every damn thing these days a law enforcement mattter and/or national news?

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Okay, let's say the boy was "defiant". Back in my day, simple remedy: conference with parents or, in extreme cases a few whacks on the butt with a paddle followed by more with dad's belt at home. Why is every damn thing these days a law enforcement mattter and/or national news?

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I'm sure they tried various forms of in-house discipline. His defiance was repeated. After in-class discipline, office discipline, parent conferences, and everything else fails to change behavior, then suspension is simply the next step.

I also found it odd that the national news got involved. However, when the story is characterized as "boy gets suspended for making finger-gun" instead of "boy gets suspended because he has repeatedly refused to do as instructed in the classroom," the headline, not the story, becomes news.

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Try again, the second URL line. It worked when I tested it but the apparently identical first line won't.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

Try again, the second URL line. It worked when I tested it but the apparently identical first line won't.

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Thanks for that! I'll share it with my students next week

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Doug,

FYI: Neither link worked for me...using MSIE that is. I tried FireFox and it DID work.

Sorry MS crapware but that's another (and non-gun related) topic...

-- John D.

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cloudcroft wrote:

Doug,

FYI: Neither link worked for me...using MSIE that is. I tried FireFox and it DID work.

Sorry MS crapware but that's another (and non-gun related) topic...

-- John D.

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On the link, you can go here (the author's web site) and there is a download link on the main page that seems to work with all browsers ... http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

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I wonder what kind of gun it was

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Rosey Palms 5-finger special

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

Rosey Palms 5-finger special

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You ought to know, Doug.

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If you say you don't then you are a liar. Heh heh heh.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

I agree that stupidity should be intolerable but that would discriminate even more hugely than culture-ism. The culture wars have started and there have been some shooting battles.

Ignorance can be cured but stupidity goes clean to the bone - so sweet. Does that not put the lie to "All men are created equal"?

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All men are created equal = totally ignorant.

Should they chose to rise above that... Well... Some do, some use it as a weapon. Like monkeys throwing their feces.

Stupid is a weapon. Some say stupid should be painful. It is. Just not to the stupid person. That's why it's a weapon.

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Theguy wrote:

onlurker wrote:

You guys tout critical thinking and all that, but it almost sounds like you guys are shooting at the hip with some of these responses. Take another read at the article:

"School officials also told the paper that Mason had been warned repeatedly against pretending to aim his hand at students but continued the behavior over several months."

<snip>
Lets try to apply some critical thinking in this group folks

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oh, believe me, I am, and when I see some proof that this is the case, I will (however grudgingly) accept this portion of the schools argument. Just because the school says it's so, don't mean it's so.

example: a school in this region was caught altering test scores on the SAT (or whatever test it was) did they admit it? not at first, for a while they maintained that they hadn't altered a thing.

and even if they can prove that they did warn him it doesn't make the rule he's breaking any less pants-on-head stupid.

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I tend to agree. I've yet to meet the school administration staff who DIDN'T take the job just to have kids to abuse who can't fight back and no one will believe. They love playing Cruel God over them, making up whatever is needed to justify their behavior if and when it makes it to the press.

I'd sooner believe the words of the Obamessiah.