Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: On Lakewood

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post



    Shortly after the shooting in Lakewood, I put up the following page on my site http://www.pointshooting.com : http://www.pointshooting.com/1alake.htm

    I recently posted it to one of the forums on Officer.com and it received negative comments.

    I think that is unfortunate, but understandable.

    Many years ago, our insurance agent said that funerals are not a good time to discuss business matters, but it also is a good time to talk about the need for life insurance.

    So it is with firearms use in close quarters. Not a pleasant thing to talk about at such a time, but the fact remains that Police firearms training is not realistic in terms of what type of shooting is most applicable to close quarters encounters.

    In the past two hundred years, no organization has researched and established scientifically which type of shooting is most applicable in a close quarters life threat situation.

    Yet, such information could be vital to the survival of both Police and members of the gun owning public in a close quarters life threat situation.

    That is bizarre, and particularly so, because according to the statistics if you are going to be shot and/or killed, it will be at less than 15 feet.

    At least the NRAnowsupports of the use of Point Shooting for close quarters life threat encounters.

    Our WA State Police training academy and those of many other States, as far as I know, teach traditional Sight Shooting and have established qualifications which require it's use.

    And unfortunately, according to the stats, Sight Shooting fails in close quarters life threat situations.

    If you have taken the time and energy tolearn how to shoot, why not expend some time and energy on learning what may be the best self defense shooting methodfor youto use.


  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    1,140

    Post imported post

    SPAM SPAM.

    Many departments use point shooting now.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    I don't need hits, I got over 3 million in the last 2 years.

    Are you a Sight Shooter,a MT type, or just what.

    The relationship between range performance and street performance is unproven. And that's a fact.

    Some PD's may use teach Point Shooting but only as an aside, but it is what is needed in most all CQB situations according to the stats.

    Most Quals require the use of Sight Shooting to pass because of the distances involved.

    For self defense, if youshoot some at 25 yards or more, or even more than10 yards, and claimself defense, you also should have a good lawyer on retainer.

    It is my understanding the WAState "Police Academy" doesn't teach Point Shooting. If I'm wrong, let me know that and what is the current Qual for students in terms of distances and the number of shots fired atdistances.






  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,610

    Post imported post

    Pace wrote:
    SPAM SPAM.

    Many departments use point shooting now.
    This is not spam as it relates directly to firearms.
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Post imported post

    Hmm.... I've never really thought about this but I use both. I sight shoot at longer distances and for accuracy but I instictively point shoot moving targets and whenever I'm rapid shooting.

    I think good point shooting is learned through familiarity with the firearm and even through lots of practice sight shooting. You kind of learn where the sights are and forget they are there.

    When shooting Trap, clays, or skeet, I used to initially line up the sights to make sure my cheek weld was right then forgot about them. Now I only do it for trap. With the faster moving stuff I'm better off not thinking about the sights, just pointing and pulling the trigger.

    When I start missing birds for apparently no reason I actually start with my shotgun off of my shoulder. I quickly shoulder it and shoot after I say "pull". Usually I'll hit the first bird that way and my problem will go away. Too much thinking = even more missing.


    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    329

    Post imported post

    Pace wrote:
    SPAM SPAM.

    Many departments use point shooting now.
    Please defining your Pace's Law on SPAM
    And who do you thinks you really areAnd PLEASE don't use the **** at other members.

    P.S. I don't eat SPAM.

    DISCLAIMER

    The law is always in a state of flux and even politicslaw enforcements, lawyers and judges get it wrong from time to time. All my advice posted on this board should be considered nothing more than hearsay. Even if a poster identifies themselves as an dictatorship jpierce, Paceand dirtykoala (are wrongfully accused me as a anti-law enforcement and commercial sales),acting godsor expert in a given field like yelohamr, there is no way to verify that fact or that they are correct. Therefore, any and all advice you glean from this forum should be independently verified!


  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    2,615

    Post imported post

    I'm a point shooter at short range.

    But that matters not. Not knowing the details of how the shooting nfolded at Lakewood, I have a feeling it wouldn't have mattered what type of training the officers who were killed had.

    This is why I think that.

    • The officers were pre-occupied and their SA was at low level.
    • The shooter had the element of suprise. He must have walked in as any other customer would have, with his pistols concealed.
    • The officers were not expecting to be attacked.
    • The shooter walked up to what he thought was his best vantage point and drew his weapon and started firing.
    • The first shot could have stunned some orall of the officers for an instant, delaying their reactions.
    • Burning powder from thefirst 3 or 4 shotscould have gotten in the eyes of one or two of the officers, blinding them.
    • IIRC the officers were setting at a booth - not a good place to be drawing a firearm and no chance to duck for cover. They were literally setting ducks for a fast firing assailant.
    • As the first couple of officers were shot they may have fallen into the other officers, impeading their ability to get at their guns andreturn fire.
    • The assationation of these officers was premeditated.
    • For all we know the assailant may havehad a chance to survey the coffee shop from outside and quickly plan his attack.
    • I suspect that this shooting was over in less than5 seconds.
    I don't think any amount of training would have prepared these officers for this kind of a situation.

    However, it may be a lesson to LEO not to congregate in such close seating again. Setting at separate tables/booths would have made this kind of attack more difficult to pull off. Something that we (non-LEO) should all remember as well.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,610

    Post imported post

    No matter what the training nor how extensive, you cannot prepare for all possibilities. None of us are invincible. In this case the bg held all of the aces.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Etzenricht, Germany
    Posts
    1,598

    Post imported post

    These cops were sitting and eating breakfast when this occurred. They were AMBUSHED by a cowardly bastard. Bringing a commercial agenda into this situation is disgusting and cheapens the 2A movement. The OP should be ashamed of himself.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    Put together a simple video about the slide stop pin problem.

    If you plan to use a 1911 for self defense, you may want to take a look at it. You can file it under: you can take a horse to water, but you can't make em drink.

    The method of shooting shown, is brain dead simple. Can be learned and maintained with little or no training. Just use safe gun handling practices and common sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Post imported post

    Grapeshot wrote:
    No matter what the training nor how extensive, you cannot prepare for all possibilities. None of us are invincible. In this case the bg held all of the aces.

    Yata hey
    The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. But, time and chance happeneth to them all. Ecclesiastes.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    6

    Post imported post

    I didn't expect my post to be welcome, but I thiink it is best to deal with what is.

    The recent testimony in the trial of the sister of the killer, has added some light on the situation. It also may not have been correct.


    Be that as it may be, I still think a full investigation and disclosure of the facts would help both Law Officers and the Public in better understanding these situations and what happens in them.

    ....................

    It is my understanding that the WA State Police academy does not teach Point Shooting.

    .........................

    Here's a new U-Tube Video: EZ Point Shooting with a pistol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511eT8Iwvd0


    And here's a link to a very brief article about the method that employs our natural ability to point at objects, and which the US Army says can be used to engage targets rapidly and accurately.

    http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyps.htm

    If you are satisfied with your ability to Point Shoot, the information may not be for you, but it might help others in getting comfortable with Point Shooting.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    6
    Here's a link to the AAR in PDF. looks to be official.

    http://www.pointshooting.com/lakewood.pdf

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •