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Thread: Open carry with CPL or out of state CWP

  1. #1
    Regular Member FLEMTP's Avatar
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    Ive been reading on the forum here for a couple of days and watched some of the youtube videos regarding kimberguy's interaction with the Jackson police dept..

    I plan on open carrying when i come up to MI this june. I do have a FL CWP and I am a Florida resident, with valid FL DL.

    My question is this: is there anywhere in black and white .. either a statute or an AG opinion or anything of the sort that spells out clearly that a CPL or a CWL holder is able to carry openly, and that keeping the weapon concealed is not a mandate as a term of the license, but simply an option?

    Seems like thats the common misperception of Law enforcement, and it would be nice to hand them somethign in print that shows exactly where it says its ok... especially being from out of state. I plan on keeping the LEO packet from MI open carry on me at all times while open carrying also. I grew up in MI, and spent 24 years of my life there, so im very familiar with the laws and whats legal and not in regards to CPL's and firearms, so I guess im just looking for a little backup is all

  2. #2
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    This is for concealed carry

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ylcv24555r4ojhrrgpv01o3g))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-28-425o&query=on&highlight=firearm

    Section 28.425o

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.

    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.

    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.

    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.


    -------------------------------------------------------

    This is overall firearms

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(azhprnbwixrpd455rjd44555))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-234d&query=on&highlight=firearm

    Section 750.234d


    Jump to the first occurrence of "firearm"

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    --------------------------------------------



    If they tell you that you must conceal. Show them to point to you where because nowhere does it say you must conceal anywhere on these 2 laws.

    PS: I dont advise for you to reach in your pants for these papers while interacting with the officer. Have them out before, ask him or have him grab them out if they are in your pocket.

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    FLEMTP wrote:
    Ive been reading on the forum here for a couple of days and watched some of the youtube videos regarding kimberguy's interaction with the Jackson police dept..

    I plan on open carrying when i come up to MI this june. I do have a FL CWP and I am a Florida resident, with valid FL DL.

    My question is this: is there anywhere in black and white .. either a statute or an AG opinion or anything of the sort that spells out clearly that a CPL or a CWL holder is able to carry openly, and that keeping the weapon concealed is not a mandate as a term of the license, but simply an option?

    Seems like thats the common misperception of Law enforcement, and it would be nice to hand them somethign in print that shows exactly where it says its ok... especially being from out of state. I plan on keeping the LEO packet from MI open carry on me at all times while open carrying also. I grew up in MI, and spent 24 years of my life there, so im very familiar with the laws and whats legal and not in regards to CPL's and firearms, so I guess im just looking for a little backup is all
    Basically, this is the USA, not the USSR. If it's not prohibited by law, you can do it.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  4. #4
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    FLEMTP wrote:
    Ive been reading on the forum here for a couple of days and watched some of the youtube videos regarding kimberguy's interaction with the Jackson police dept..

    I plan on open carrying when i come up to MI this june. I do have a FL CWP and I am a Florida resident, with valid FL DL.

    My question is this: is there anywhere in black and white .. either a statute or an AG opinion or anything of the sort that spells out clearly that a CPL or a CWL holder is able to carry openly, and that keeping the weapon concealed is not a mandate as a term of the license, but simply an option?

    Seems like thats the common misperception of Law enforcement, and it would be nice to hand them somethign in print that shows exactly where it says its ok... especially being from out of state. I plan on keeping the LEO packet from MI open carry on me at all times while open carrying also. I grew up in MI, and spent 24 years of my life there, so im very familiar with the laws and whats legal and not in regards to CPL's and firearms, so I guess im just looking for a little backup is all
    Basically, this is the USA, not the USSR.* If it's not prohibited by law, you can do it.
    Exactly. Nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that if a person has a CPL he/she requires to carry pistol concealed. Also, nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that OC is prohibited. In addition, there is Michigan AG Opinion that carrying pistol in the holster is not considered concealed if holster is in open view and would not require CPL. This is true even if holster makes your pistol completely invisible.

  5. #5
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    sasha601 wrote:
    Big Gay Al wrote:
    FLEMTP wrote:
    Ive been reading on the forum here for a couple of days and watched some of the youtube videos regarding kimberguy's interaction with the Jackson police dept..

    I plan on open carrying when i come up to MI this june. I do have a FL CWP and I am a Florida resident, with valid FL DL.

    My question is this: is there anywhere in black and white .. either a statute or an AG opinion or anything of the sort that spells out clearly that a CPL or a CWL holder is able to carry openly, and that keeping the weapon concealed is not a mandate as a term of the license, but simply an option?

    Seems like thats the common misperception of Law enforcement, and it would be nice to hand them somethign in print that shows exactly where it says its ok... especially being from out of state. I plan on keeping the LEO packet from MI open carry on me at all times while open carrying also. I grew up in MI, and spent 24 years of my life there, so im very familiar with the laws and whats legal and not in regards to CPL's and firearms, so I guess im just looking for a little backup is all
    Basically, this is the USA, not the USSR. If it's not prohibited by law, you can do it.
    Exactly. Nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that if a person has a CPL he/she requires to carry pistol concealed. Also, nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that OC is prohibited. In addition, there is Michigan AG Opinion that carrying pistol in the holster is not considered concealed if holster is in open view and would not require CPL. This is true even if holster makes your pistol completely invisible.
    are you sure about that part? i dont believe its been discussed
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  6. #6
    Regular Member FLEMTP's Avatar
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    I appreciate the responses guys... like i said I'll be keeping the info and law references handy and printed out during my visit to MI, just to cover myself. Ive seen many examples of LEO ignorance, and Im sure i'll eventually get a little bit of it especially visiting from out of state. I have some law enforcement experience myself, and I deal with LEO's constantly at work here, and I've found that if you have a question about the law.. the LAST person you want to ask is a LEO generally. There are a few exceptional LEO's that are well educated on the law and the application of specific laws, especially the more obscure ones, but generally they seem to know very little about the laws they dont use on an everyday basis.. like the concealed weapons laws.

    While I do understand the idea that if its not prohibited by law, then its legal, but ive been seeing an awful lot of the argument from LEO's stating that " you have a CPL you have to abide by that and not carry open" and im not sure if its more of a bully tactic or if its just their complete ignorance of the law, but it would be nice to have something like an AG opinion or MSP opinion to back that up....because while I know my rights and I know michigan law very well, being a 24 year former resident of MI, Im sure there will be a run in with a dickhead who will end up giving me a hassle. With that said, I also will be bringing with me my dept ID and dept badge (both are always carried in my wallet anyhow, so nothing out of the ordinary) and im hoping that will give me a little bit of leeway with LEO's.

    My previous visits in 2009 both went without any issues and I carried open as much as was legal and made sense. I would get some weird looks here and there, but I look very much like an off-duty LEO, and I still have many of my mannerisms from my previous law enforcement training and experience, so many people assume im a cop.

    I did have a clerk at an extended stay freak out a little, until I told her I was from out of state and worked in public safety.. and then after she relaxed I educated her about the open carry laws for MI... but no MWAG calls on me (that *I* know of) and i carried everywhere from the north suburbs of detroit, to Howell, Pinckney, Lansing, farmingon hills, and everywhere in between.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Another thing I'm surprised nobody has mentioned, is that you can Open Carry even if you don't have a CWP or CPL or a yellow ten gallon hat or anything...

    So, while what has been posted thus far is true, I would say that where there is doubt, pretend you're like a Michigan resident open carrying without a CPL, and you will be fine.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    sasha601 wrote:
    Exactly. Nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that if a person has a CPL he/she requires to carry pistol concealed. Also, nowhere in Michigan Law you will find that OC is prohibited. In addition, there is Michigan AG Opinion that carrying pistol in the holster is not considered concealed if holster is in open view and would not require CPL. This is true even if holster makes your pistol completely invisible.
    are you sure about that part? i dont believe its been discussed
    It's true if you're talking about flap holsters. Inside the waistband (IWB) holsters, are a somewhat different matter.

    The key is, It has to be carried in such a manner that it's obvious to the casual observer you have a holstered pistol.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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