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Thread: New guy with some questions.

  1. #1
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Hello all I am happy to have found this site. I have looking around on here for a couple of days now and you guys have got me so confused that I dont even want to touch my pistol!!I have had my CPL for 2 years and I thought that I knew the laws pretty well, but after reading some of the posts on here I am second guessing myself. First off I just found out that OC is legal in MI, whichwas a very nice surprise and I am very excited about it.Some of the things that I am concerned about are the CC laws pertaining to PFZ's. I have seen people's posts on here saying that you can't CC in banks and anywhere that sells alcohol, including grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants that serve alcohol. This goes against whatI was taught and have read. Right now I am reading the book of Firearms Laws of Michigan that was given to me by the county when I got my CPL, and it says nothing in here aboutnot CCing in banks, and was told by my CPL instructor that it was ok. It alsostates very clearly (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. It also says the same thing on the back ofmy CPL itself. Now I don't see how grocery stores, gas stations andrestaurants fall into this catagory.Have these laws changed in the last 2 years and I was not aware of it? Could someone please try and clear this up for me, because the last thing I want to do is break any laws.

    Thanks,

    Brian

  2. #2
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Hello all I am happy to have found this site. I have looking around on here for a couple of days now and you guys have got me so confused that I dont even want to touch my pistol!!I have had my CPL for 2 years and I thought that I knew the laws pretty well, but after reading some of the posts on here I am second guessing myself. First off I just found out that OC is legal in MI, whichwas a very nice surprise and I am very excited about it.Some of the things that I am concerned about are the CC laws pertaining to PFZ's. I have seen people's posts on here saying that you can't CC in banks and anywhere that sells alcohol, including grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants that serve alcohol. This goes against whatI was taught and have read. Right now I am reading the book of Firearms Laws of Michigan that was given to me by the county when I got my CPL, and it says nothing in here aboutnot CCing in banks, and was told by my CPL instructor that it was ok. It alsostates very clearly (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. It also says the same thing on the back ofmy CPL itself. Now I don't see how grocery stores, gas stations andrestaurants fall into this catagory.Have these laws changed in the last 2 years and I was not aware of it? Could someone please try and clear this up for me, because the last thing I want to do is break any laws.

    Thanks,

    Brian

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection

    (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from

    licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying

    a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the

    child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of

    the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child

    placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where

    the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This

    subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and

    make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,

    an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator

    of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may,

    but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed

    under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision

    is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless

    the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of

    concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know

    has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than

    1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f),

    shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated

    under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed

    weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement

    officer retired in good standing.

  3. #3
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    O and welcome to OC hope this helps clear up some questions.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Go to the link below, it has a lot of info on separate topics, pdf format and should answer most of your questions.
    Welcome to the forum.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/36728-1.html

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Welcome.

    With the exception of establishments where alcohol is the primary source of income, the others you listed, are off limits to OC w/o a CPL.

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    Welcome to OCDO's Michigan thread.


    OCing with a CPL all but eliminates the PFZs. The quick reference chart, stickied to the top of the page, should have all the info you need.


    The bank thing only applies to federal reserve banks, not your local bank. OC w/o a CPL is not permitted in PFZs. Such as in a bar like you listed, With your CPL you can OC and be well within the law.


    Any information here is just the opinion of the Original Poster, and should be takin as opinion. For actual laws pertaining to firearms. Check here:


    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...aspx?page=Home

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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Hello all I am happy to have found this site. I have looking around on here for a couple of days now and you guys have got me so confused that I dont even want to touch my pistol!!I have had my CPL for 2 years and I thought that I knew the laws pretty well, but after reading some of the posts on here I am second guessing myself. First off I just found out that OC is legal in MI, whichwas a very nice surprise and I am very excited about it.Some of the things that I am concerned about are the CC laws pertaining to PFZ's. I have seen people's posts on here saying that you can't CC in banks and anywhere that sells alcohol, including grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants that serve alcohol. This goes against whatI was taught and have read. Right now I am reading the book of Firearms Laws of Michigan that was given to me by the county when I got my CPL, and it says nothing in here aboutnot CCing in banks, and was told by my CPL instructor that it was ok. It alsostates very clearly (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. It also says the same thing on the back ofmy CPL itself. Now I don't see how grocery stores, gas stations andrestaurants fall into this catagory.Have these laws changed in the last 2 years and I was not aware of it? Could someone please try and clear this up for me, because the last thing I want to do is break any laws.

    Thanks,

    Brian
    Welcome to the forum. I don't know which "guys" gave you this impression about "CC" restrictions, but they are incorrect, and that is not the information given at the top of the page.

    The restrictions you mention would apply with OC without a CPL, but not CC. This is why we encourage people to be very well versed in the laws (among other things) before attempting to OC.
    I have seen people's posts on here saying that
    You can't CC in banks
    Not true.
    Anywhere that sells alcohol (including grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants that serve alcohol.)
    This is also not true. You have it right. "where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises."

    The laws can be confusing. They are different for CC, OC without a CPL, and OC with a CPL. In your original post, you are talking about CC, and are doing what sounds like applying OC restrictions to CC.



  9. #9
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Hello all I am happy to have found this site. I have looking around on here for a couple of days now and you guys have got me so confused that I dont even want to touch my pistol!!I have had my CPL for 2 years and I thought that I knew the laws pretty well, but after reading some of the posts on here I am second guessing myself. First off I just found out that OC is legal in MI, whichwas a very nice surprise and I am very excited about it.Some of the things that I am concerned about are the CC laws pertaining to PFZ's. I have seen people's posts on here saying that you can't CC in banks(only federal banks) and anywhere that sells alcohol (this pertains to open carry without a cpl) , including grocery stores, gas stations, and restaurants that serve alcohol. This goes against whatI was taught and have read. Right now I am reading the book of Firearms Laws (this is good. keep it up. knowledge is power) of Michigan that was given to me by the county when I got my CPL, and it says nothing in here aboutnot CCing in banks, and was told by my CPL instructor that it was ok. It alsostates very clearly (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303,where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. (this is concerning concealing a pistol. possession on these premises is legal, and since you can't conceal, there is only one other way to possess on the property.)It also says the same thing on the back ofmy CPL itself. Now I don't see how grocery stores, gas stations andrestaurants fall into this catagory.Have these laws changed in the last 2 years and I was not aware of it? Could someone please try and clear this up for me, because the last thing I want to do is break any laws.

    Thanks,

    Brian
    Michigan law is incredibly confusing, and you'll do well to stick around and have conversation, and read the links that have already been provided to you in this thread. Most everything linked to you will be in your Firearms Law compilation you received from the county. Over time, things change, though, so you may want to go get an updated copy, or take notes in the one you have.
    My comments are in red above, and you should check out the links provided, and read your law book to confirm and learn the specifics. Since you have your cpl, you are pretty much covered, you just need to learn the absolute prohibitions, and which places you would be required to carry openly.
    Welcome to the forum.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Hello all I am happy to have found this site. I have looking around on here for a couple of days now and you guys have got me so confused that I dont even want to touch my pistol!!
    Your state of confusion is due to the mess that is Michigan gun laws and your newness to the subject, grasshopper.

    Stick around, read, and ask questions. Take baby-steps when you start OC'ing; i.e., don't start OC'ing everywhere, all the time. Start OC'ing just on your property, thento and from aplace you go to a lot, then branch out further as you feel more comfortable.

    Soon, you'll be reassuring the grasshoppers coming here wailing and gnashing teeth about how new and confused they are.

    Welcome aboard!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum. I would suggest coming to a few events and meeting some people. Post that you wanna go for a burger on a weekend and meet up with a few of us. there's always someone on here who'll meet up for a good burger and the chance to OC. Get a good digital recorder. USE IT! Keep asking questions. Remember, the only dumb one is the one you never asked. And have thick skin cuzz some guys on here will bust your balls for asking what they think is a totally obvious question. Just keep asking and reading......just sayin....
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:01 PM.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    I dunno, I'm sure it happens, but I don't see it here much, thankfully. At least not from the people that have the right to do that. Those who actually know exactly what they're talking about. I mean yeesh, how many new members/posts have we had in the last month asking question that are in the stickies? The stickies are usually referenced, but more often than not, those references are with an explanation and MCL specific to the question at hand. One of the reasons I <3 you guys. o.o;

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    To cut through everything, you can CC in a bank. You can't OC in a bank unless you have a CPL.

    You can CC in a place that sells package alcohol, stores and such. You can't CC at places like Rum Runners (Downtown Lansing).

    And if you ask me, my 10 year old boy could do a better job of writing gun laws for Michigan, but then again, with him he'd just let everyone carry, and let God sort it out.

    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Since you live so close if possible I would highly recommend coming to Gander Mountain on March 20 from 11am-1pm. More info here

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/38497.html

    Also I live on the border of Clinton Twp and Fraser. If you want to meet up to learn more I am available. You can send me an email at swebb@miopencarry.org if you wish to get in touch. Welcome to the world of OC.

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    Hello I live in riverview mi and I would love to learn more about oc and mabe get together sometime if someone lives around here.

  17. #17
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    Since you live so close if possible I would highly recommend coming to Gander Mountain on March 20 from 11am-1pm. More info here

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/38497.html

    Also I live on the border of Clinton Twp and Fraser. If you want to meet up to learn more I am available. You can send me an email at swebb@miopencarry.org if you wish to get in touch. Welcome to the world of OC.
    This ^

    Elvis wrote:
    Hello I live in riverview mi and I would love to learn more about oc and mabe get together sometime if someone lives around here.
    Welcome, Utica may be a hike for you, but we'd love to have you as well

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    Since you live so close if possible I would highly recommend coming to Gander Mountain on March 20 from 11am-1pm. More info here

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/38497.html

    Also I live on the border of Clinton Twp and Fraser. If you want to meet up to learn more I am available. You can send me an email at swebb@miopencarry.org if you wish to get in touch. Welcome to the world of OC.
    This ^

    Elvis wrote:
    Hello I live in riverview mi and I would love to learn more about oc and mabe get together sometime if someone lives around here.
    Welcome, Utica may be a hike for you, but we'd love to have you as well
    +1

  19. #19
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for clearing that up for me!! I knew I was right I don't know how I got so confused. I was probably just tired and misunderstood some people's posts. I am a Criminal Justice major so I would like to think that I know the laws pretty well. I am new the OC thing, I can't believe that I didn't know this before, its like a dream come true lol! I will be attending the Gander Mtn. event and as many other events that I can, as I am very passionate about this subject. I have already begun to spread the word and have handed out a couple MOC pamphlets. I have not OC'd yet, it is a little scarey but as long as I know I have the law on my side I think I will be just fine. Idid buy a recorder yesterday, now I need to find a good OC holster, because all I have are IWB's (any suggestions?) btw I carry a Glock 19. Sprinklerguy28 you must literally live a stones throw away from me, I live at the corner of 15 mile and Garfield, and yes I would like to get together sometime.



    -Brian

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    A good all around OC holster is a Blackhawk Serpa level 2 retention holster. It's on the cheap and it works well, comes with belt or paddle attachment and is pretty darn comfortable for my monies. 26.39 on Amazon right now!

    http://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-SERP.../dp/B001QGI1U8

    I live in south Warren, not to far from you myself. We have had quite a few meets now at the Coney on the corner of Gratiot and 696 service drive, seems like a good midpoint spot and I'm up for a good weekend lunch or early weekday dinner most days. We just had a meet there not long ago, but another would be welcome as I wasn't able to make that one We go there because they are OC friendly, and they don't serve alcohol thus no need for a CPL to OC for those members w/o a CPL.

    You'll also find it's very easy to set up your own meet. If you're interested, post here or make a new thread about a good time and day to meet there, or PM me if you're feeling shy and trust me, people will show

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    .
    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Thanks guys for clearing that up for me!! I knew I was right I don't know how I got so confused. I was probably just tired and misunderstood some people's posts. I am a Criminal Justice major so I would like to think that I know the laws pretty well. I am new the OC thing, I can't believe that I didn't know this before, its like a dream come true lol! I will be attending the Gander Mtn. event and as many other events that I can, as I am very passionate about this subject. I have already begun to spread the word and have handed out a couple MOC pamphlets. I have not OC'd yet, it is a little scarey but as long as I know I have the law on my side I think I will be just fine. I*did buy a recorder yesterday, now I need to find a good OC holster, because all I have are IWB's (any suggestions?) btw I carry a Glock 19. Sprinklerguy28 you must literally live a stones throw away from me, I live at the corner of 15 mile and Garfield, and yes I would like to get together sometime.

    *

    -Brian
    For some reason, those that live below the bridge, (aka...nevermind ) have forgotten, or never learned that OC is legal, and always has been legal. Most of us Yoopers consider it common knowledge. But then again, when many employers have the first day of deer season as a paid holiday, what do you expect
    Rand Paul 2016

  23. #23
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    you had to mention yoopers and deer season....



    i JUST got "its da second week of deer camp" out of my head after it had been there all weekend!

    now im gonna go watch escanaba in da moonlight....
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  24. #24
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    Thanks guys for clearing that up for me!! I knew I was right I don't know how I got so confused. I was probably just tired and misunderstood some people's posts. I am a Criminal Justice major so I would like to think that I know the laws pretty well. I am new the OC thing, I can't believe that I didn't know this before, its like a dream come true lol! I will be attending the Gander Mtn. event and as many other events that I can, as I am very passionate about this subject. I have already begun to spread the word and have handed out a couple MOC pamphlets. I have not OC'd yet, it is a little scarey but as long as I know I have the law on my side I think I will be just fine. Idid buy a recorder yesterday, now I need to find a good OC holster, because all I have are IWB's (any suggestions?) btw I carry a Glock 19. Sprinklerguy28 you must literally live a stones throw away from me, I live at the corner of 15 mile and Garfield, and yes I would like to get together sometime.



    -Brian
    You can meet up with me whenever too. Just PM me, I can even bring a holster for you to borrow while we are out, I have a few Glocks, and sevral holsters.

    God Bless

    SEMPER FI
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  25. #25
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    FatboyCykes wrote:
    A good all around OC holster is a Blackhawk Serpa level 2 retention holster. It's on the cheap and it works well, comes with belt or paddle attachment and is pretty darn comfortable for my monies. 26.39 on Amazon right now!

    http://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-SERP.../dp/B001QGI1U8

    I own a Glock 23, and that is the type of holster I use and prefer. I highly suggest it.
    I use a Blackhawk Serpa, most days for my G21, also use others, but mostly this holster.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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