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Thread: Quote from DOL (Washington State)

  1. #1
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    A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

    The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.



    Subject: Firearms Question

    "Where in Washington State can a person carry a pistol in a holster, not concealed?


    James"

    From the Department of Licensing

    Re: Firearms Question

    James,

    There is no law saying that you cannot openly carry a firearm. And, there is no law that says you can. There is a law RCW 9.41.270 that refers to the intimidation of carry a weapon and what the penalty will be if found guilty of intimidation.



    RCW 9.41.280 and 9.41.300 also have restrictions on where firearms are not allowed.




    Bruce W. Tanaka

    Firearms Unit Program Manager

    Dept. of Licensing

    Business and Professions Division

    360-664-6622

    btanaka@dol.wa.gov



    I found a couple things interesting.

    1. He was right there is no law that says you can not openly carry your handgun in a holster not concealed here in Washington State.

    2. He made sure to add the part of the law that describes "intimidation".

    I felt that the underlying message said "you can carry openly but you will be accused and punished for "intimidation" without doing anything wrong. Now I could be reading to much into a simple response but there was just a tone to the content. I do feel thata private security officer that walks around with his hand on his firearm is performing an act of intimidation. But again, that's another topic altogether.

    The person was kind enough to add his contact information.


    James

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    hawaidvr9 wrote:
    A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

    The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.



    Subject: Firearms Question

    "Where in Washington State can a person carry a pistol in a holster, not concealed?


    James"

    From the Department of Licensing

    Re: Firearms Question

    James,

    There is no law saying that you cannot openly carry a firearm. And, there is no law that says you can. There is a law RCW 9.41.270 that refers to the intimidation of carry a weapon and what the penalty will be if found guilty of intimidation.



    RCW 9.41.280 and 9.41.300 also have restrictions on where firearms are not allowed.




    Bruce W. Tanaka

    Firearms Unit Program Manager

    Dept. of Licensing

    Business and Professions Division

    360-664-6622

    btanaka@dol.wa.gov



    I found a couple things interesting.

    1. He was right there is no law that says you can not openly carry your handgun in a holster not concealed here in Washington State.

    2. He made sure to add the part of the law that describes "intimidation".

    I felt that the underlying message said "you can carry openly but you will be accused and punished for "intimidation" without doing anything wrong. Now I could be reading to much into a simple response but there was just a tone to the content. I do feel thata private security officer that walks around with his hand on his firearm is performing an act of intimidation. But again, that's another topic altogether.

    The person was kind enough to add his contact information.


    James
    This dude needs to contact the Attorney Generals Office before he writes a letter like this. If it was me, I would send a copy to the AG's office, along with a request that they correct this man's incorrect interpretation of the law and let them correct this knucklehead's improper ideas of what the law saysand his vialedthreatsas aDOL Representative.

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    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.

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    Why would you ask this question of the DOL? They have absolutely no authority relevant to the question, and thus no expertise.

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    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.

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    Why do they have a Firearms Unit Program Manager?

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    ghosthunter wrote:
    Why do they have a Firearms Unit Program Manager?
    Probably administers the CPL program.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Yeah, I'm kind of surprised to see that you got an answer (which should be looked at as a personal opinion, which could likely get the guy in a heap of trouble should it be misused--).

    The DOL does maintain the CPL records, which is exactly why a police officer is automatically given your CPL status upon a records search on your WADL number.

    Also, there is no law stating that you 'CAN' wear a green shirt in WA state, or eat triple-cheeseburgers, either. The assumption of a free country means that everything is legal, unless specifically illegalized.

    Nice to see Bear back on the boards in the last few days/weeks.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?

    Cool it man I am just joking

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?

    Cool it man I am just joking
    I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. And the money wouldn't be so bad either.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?

    Cool it man I am just joking
    I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. And the money wouldn't be so bad either.
    Too bad he's dead.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    I agree that he answered it a straightforward manner. He made no "interruption"(?) for the AG to disagree with, what he stated is factually correct, there is no law that says you can, there is no law that says you can't.

    His reference to RCW 9.41.270 is the most applicable for possible consequences should you carry in a manner that intimidates or does warrant alarm. No where does he say or "infer" that open carrying IS intimidation.


    RCW 9.41.270 -(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.



    I think some folks are reading into his reply and stretching it to their biases.


    Anyone see the news recently about the guy carrying a shotgun, trying to clear people off of the "Private Rd" while they were at the school bus stop?

    Sounds like they arrested him under 9.41.270, it will be interesting to see how the case goes.

    Yes, it is a private rd, but it served several houses, not just his and there appears that there may be easement issues as well.

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    I wonder when people will figure out that if something isn't prohibited, then it is legal? You don't need permission to OC in any place it is legal to carry...

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    WOW Thanks for the compliment Bear, being compared to a Respectable Attorney.
    See I knew you liked me
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?

    Cool it man I am just joking
    I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. And the money wouldn't be so bad either.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-BSuOAGoC4

    I'm more interested in the guard ready to draw...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    hawaidvr9 wrote:
    A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

    The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.
    Curious as to why one would not want to discuss an issue that would be considered violating State Law be it by a citizen or private security?

    If someone was to walk around open carrying and having his/her hand perched upon grip of the gun would not it likely cause alarm and/or intimidation?

    Why would that be more acceptable be it security or police for that matter with out a present threat of harm?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".

    - The intention of the activity is a bigger deal than the mindless fiddling of an object that 75% of the people on the planet do.


    -ALSO, it's my opinion that laws should address the direct action/intention of an entity, not the perceived or appearance of possible action unless, without any doubt, intention of those actions can be shown to exist. Thats why i have such an issue with .270 and the likes. They try to somehow establish an ability to define ones intention/action before the intention/action occurs... impossible.


    Just my thoughts.

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    BigDave wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    olypendrew wrote:
    It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
    He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
    WOW Thanks for the compliment Bear, being compared to a Respectable Attorney.
    See I knew you liked me
    Please explain how the term "attorney" and "well respected" can be used in the same sentence without creating an OXYMORON?

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    Batousaii wrote:
    To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".
    Agreed. One could even view resting a hand on the butt of the firearm as an extra retention effort.

    There is a HUGE differeance from hand on the rear of a firearm and hand gripping a firearm.

  20. #20
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    David.Car wrote:
    Batousaii wrote:
    To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".
    Agreed. One could even view resting a hand on the butt of the firearm as an extra retention effort.

    There is a HUGE differeance from hand on the rear of a firearm and hand gripping a firearm.
    YUP, John Wayne and Gary Cooper used to rest their hand on their gun all the time.

  21. #21
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    It is my view and my past experience that going around with your hand on your gun is done with the intention of drawing the weapon or preparing to employ the weapon with articulable circumstances.

    I could see Joe Citizen being charged under RCW 9.41.270 to intimidate or cause alarm.

    A similar incident just occured as 911Boss posted;
    "Anyone see the news recently about the guy carrying a shotgun, trying to clear people off of the "Private Rd" while they were at the school bus stop?
    Sounds like they arrested him under 9.41.270, it will be interesting to see how the case goes.
    Yes, it is a private rd, but it served several houses, not just his and there appears that there may be easement issues as well."
    That's when he says a neighbor came out and threatened him with a shotgun.
    Despite the possible danger, Fowler snapped a photo of the man with his cell phone. The photo shows the man gripping the shotgun in his right hand.


    Cell phone photo shows a man approaching the Fox Island school bus stop with a shotgun.

    Fowler says: "I ask him what he's going to do with it. And he tells me if I don't get off his property, he's going to show me what he's going to do with it. Now, that sounds like a threat to me."

    Full Story http://www.komonews.com/news/local/86730372.html

    I am sure some here will feel that he was perfectly fine in what he did and yet he committed a crime as described in RCW 9.41.270 as it would not fall under the exceptions of this RCW.
    RCW 9.41.270(3)Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
    Some may want to argue the issue of Place of Abode and if one was to research this in Washington State Case Law you will find that the Place of Abode is in or on your residence in which you reside which is defined as house or dwelling and items physically attached to as a porch, deck or garage but not an unattached garage or out buildings.
    Your yard fenced or not would not apply as to your place of abode.
    It does not appear he was under threat of unlawful force nor witnessing a felony.

    If he would have stayed on his porch and yelled at them from there with his shotgun in hand he would have feel under the protection of the exceptions clause.

    This is just an example of how fast things can get out of hand, and if one is observed with their hand on their handgun and depending on the surround circumstances such as actions, statements or even a stinking look could be considered alarming by some.

    Personally I have no need to put my hand on my gun unless I am going to do something with it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    It is my view and my past experience that going around with your hand on your gun is done with the intention of drawing the weapon or preparing to employ the weapon with articulable circumstances.

    I could see Joe Citizen being charged under RCW 9.41.270 to intimidate or cause alarm.

    A similar incident just occured as 911Boss posted;
    "Anyone see the news recently about the guy carrying a shotgun, trying to clear people off of the "Private Rd" while they were at the school bus stop?
    Sounds like they arrested him under 9.41.270, it will be interesting to see how the case goes.
    Yes, it is a private rd, but it served several houses, not just his and there appears that there may be easement issues as well."
    That's when he says a neighbor came out and threatened him with a shotgun.
    Despite the possible danger, Fowler snapped a photo of the man with his cell phone. The photo shows the man gripping the shotgun in his right hand.


    Cell phone photo shows a man approaching the Fox Island school bus stop with a shotgun.

    Fowler says: "I ask him what he's going to do with it. And he tells me if I don't get off his property, he's going to show me what he's going to do with it. Now, that sounds like a threat to me."

    Full Story http://www.komonews.com/news/local/86730372.html

    I am sure some here will feel that he was perfectly fine in what he did and yet he committed a crime as described in RCW 9.41.270 as it would not fall under the exceptions of this RCW.
    RCW 9.41.270(3)Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
    Some may want to argue the issue of Place of Abode and if one was to research this in Washington State Case Law you will find that the Place of Abode is in or on your residence in which you reside which is defined as house or dwelling and items physically attached to as a porch, deck or garage but not an unattached garage or out buildings.
    Your yard fenced or not would not apply as to your place of abode.
    It does not appear he was under threat of unlawful force nor witnessing a felony.

    If he would have stayed on his porch and yelled at them from there with his shotgun in hand he would have feel under the protection of the exceptions clause.

    This is just an example of how fast things can get out of hand, and if one is observed with their hand on their handgun and depending on the surround circumstances such as actions, statements or even a stinking look could be considered alarming by some.

    Personally I have no need to put my hand on my gun unless I am going to do something with it.
    Your opinion is not even backed up by you being a lawyerwith at least half a chance of understanding the law. Once again you have taken the anti-gun crowds point of view of the situation. Your opinion is worthless like every other admin flunky I ever met or had to deal with.

  23. #23
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Your opinion is not even backed up by you being a lawyerwith at least half a chance of understanding the law. Once again you have taken the anti-gun crowds point of view of the situation. Your opinion is worthless like every other admin flunky I ever met or had to deal with.
    LOL who said I was a lawyer Not I.

    Yawnnnnnn! You Bore me Bear
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Your opinion is not even backed up by you being a lawyerwith at least half a chance of understanding the law. Once again you have taken the anti-gun crowds point of view of the situation. Your opinion is worthless like every other admin flunky I ever met or had to deal with.
    LOL who said I was a lawyer Not I.

    Yawnnnnnn! You Bore me Bear
    You and your scewed view do however both me because the internet then turns around and makes you nonsense into fact. However, you bother my like a flea or a tick. But your opinions are not only counter to any pro-gun person I ever met. But then what would one expect for an S-3 weenie. Oh and you spout opinions and interpretations of the law with no cite to back them up other than to quote what the law says rather than a courts opinion of that law was or even legislative intent.

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    Bear, Big Dave's opinion is backed up by case law about what "in a persons place of abode" means. There are two that I know of that state it does not extend to real property that is not directly attached to the persons dwelling.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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