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Quote from DOL (Washington State)

hawaidvr9

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
36
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.



Subject: Firearms Question

"Where in Washington State can a person carry a pistol in a holster, not concealed?


James"

From the Department of Licensing

Re: Firearms Question

James,

There is no law saying that you cannot openly carry a firearm. And, there is no law that says you can. There is a law RCW 9.41.270 that refers to the intimidation of carry a weapon and what the penalty will be if found guilty of intimidation.



RCW 9.41.280 and 9.41.300 also have restrictions on where firearms are not allowed.




Bruce W. Tanaka

Firearms Unit Program Manager

Dept. of Licensing

Business and Professions Division

360-664-6622

btanaka@dol.wa.gov



I found a couple things interesting.

1. He was right there is no law that says you can not openly carry your handgun in a holster not concealed here in Washington State.

2. He made sure to add the part of the law that describes "intimidation".

I felt that the underlying message said "you can carry openly but you will be accused and punished for "intimidation" without doing anything wrong. Now I could be reading to much into a simple response but there was just a tone to the content. I do feel thata private security officer that walks around with his hand on his firearm is performing an act of intimidation. But again, that's another topic altogether.

The person was kind enough to add his contact information.


James
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

hawaidvr9 wrote:
A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.



Subject: Firearms Question

"Where in Washington State can a person carry a pistol in a holster, not concealed?


James"

From the Department of Licensing

Re: Firearms Question

James,

There is no law saying that you cannot openly carry a firearm. And, there is no law that says you can. There is a law RCW 9.41.270 that refers to the intimidation of carry a weapon and what the penalty will be if found guilty of intimidation.



RCW 9.41.280 and 9.41.300 also have restrictions on where firearms are not allowed.




Bruce W. Tanaka

Firearms Unit Program Manager

Dept. of Licensing

Business and Professions Division

360-664-6622

btanaka@dol.wa.gov



I found a couple things interesting.

1. He was right there is no law that says you can not openly carry your handgun in a holster not concealed here in Washington State.

2. He made sure to add the part of the law that describes "intimidation".

I felt that the underlying message said "you can carry openly but you will be accused and punished for "intimidation" without doing anything wrong. Now I could be reading to much into a simple response but there was just a tone to the content. I do feel thata private security officer that walks around with his hand on his firearm is performing an act of intimidation. But again, that's another topic altogether.

The person was kind enough to add his contact information.


James
This dude needs to contact the Attorney Generals Office before he writes a letter like this. If it was me, I would send a copy to the AG's office, along with a request that they correct this man's incorrect interpretation of the law and let them correct this knucklehead's improper ideas of what the law saysand his vialedthreatsas aDOL Representative.
 

olypendrew

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
295
Location
Port Angeles, Washington, USA
imported post

It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
 

Bear 45/70

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Messages
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
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olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
 

G20-IWB24/7

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
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Yeah, I'm kind of surprised to see that you got an answer (which should be looked at as a personal opinion, which could likely get the guy in a heap of trouble should it be misused--).

The DOL does maintain the CPL records, which is exactly why a police officer is automatically given your CPL status upon a records search on your WADL number.

Also, there is no law stating that you 'CAN' wear a green shirt in WA state, or eat triple-cheeseburgers, either. The assumption of a free country means that everything is legal, unless specifically illegalized.

Nice to see Bear back on the boards in the last few days/weeks.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
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Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.

Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?:D:lol:

Cool it man I am just joking:)
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

Trigger Dr wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.

Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?:D:lol:

Cool it man I am just joking:)
I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. :lol:And the money wouldn't be so bad either.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
Trigger Dr wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.

Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?:D:lol:

Cool it man I am just joking:)
I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. :lol:And the money wouldn't be so bad either.
Too bad he's dead.
 

911Boss

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Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Messages
753
Location
Gone... Nutty as squirrel **** around here
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Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
I agree that he answered it a straightforward manner. He made no "interruption"(?) for the AG to disagree with, what he stated is factually correct, there is no law that says you can, there is no law that says you can't.

His reference to RCW 9.41.270 is the most applicable for possible consequences should you carry in a manner that intimidates or does warrant alarm. No where does he say or "infer" that open carrying IS intimidation.


RCW 9.41.270 -(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.



I think some folks are reading into his reply and stretching it to their biases.


Anyone see the news recently about the guy carrying a shotgun, trying to clear people off of the "Private Rd" while they were at the school bus stop?

Sounds like they arrested him under 9.41.270, it will be interesting to see how the case goes.

Yes, it is a private rd, but it served several houses, not just his and there appears that there may be easement issues as well.
 

sv_libertarian

State Researcher
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Olympia, WA, ,
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I wonder when people will figure out that if something isn't prohibited, then it is legal? You don't need permission to OC in any place it is legal to carry...
 

BigDave

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Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
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Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
WOW Thanks for the compliment Bear, being compared to a Respectable Attorney.
See I knew you liked me ;)
 

amzbrady

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
Trigger Dr wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.

Bear, Why don't you change your screen name to Archie Bunker?:D:lol:

Cool it man I am just joking:)
I wish I had the talent of Carroll O'Conner. :lol:And the money wouldn't be so bad either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-BSuOAGoC4

I'm more interested in the guard ready to draw...
 

BigDave

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Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
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Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
imported post

hawaidvr9 wrote:
A co-worker and I were discussing an issue we have with private security who walk around with their hand on their firearm, in the ready to draw position. That conversation lead to my sending an email regarding "open carry" to the Department of Licensing here in Washington state.

The security officer issue is an entirely different topic so lets not discuss that, but here is my original question and the answer.
Curious as to why one would not want to discuss an issue that would be considered violating State Law be it by a citizen or private security?

If someone was to walk around open carrying and having his/her hand perched upon grip of the gun would not it likely cause alarm and/or intimidation?

Why would that be more acceptable be it security or police for that matter with out a present threat of harm?
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
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To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".

- The intention of the activity is a bigger deal than the mindless fiddling of an object that 75% of the people on the planet do.


-ALSO, it's my opinion that laws should address the direct action/intention of an entity, not the perceived or appearance of possible action unless, without any doubt, intention of those actions can be shown to exist. Thats why i have such an issue with .270 and the likes. They try to somehow establish an ability to define ones intention/action before the intention/action occurs... impossible.


;)Just my thoughts.
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
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BigDave wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
olypendrew wrote:
It seems to me he answered the question in a straightforward manner, and you are reading too much into it. I'm actually surprised he answered the question at all, instead of stating that he cannot give legal advice, or some other non-answer.
He screwed up as the Attorney General disagrees with his interruption of the law. And you sound like Big Dave.
WOW Thanks for the compliment Bear, being compared to a Respectable Attorney.
See I knew you liked me ;)

Please explain how the term "attorney" and "well respected" can be used in the same sentence without creating an OXYMORON?
 

David.Car

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

Batousaii wrote:
To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".

Agreed. One could even view resting a hand on the butt of the firearm as an extra retention effort.

There is a HUGE differeance from hand on the rear of a firearm and hand gripping a firearm.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
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Wa, ,
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David.Car wrote:
Batousaii wrote:
To me, there is a big difference between resting one's hand on the weapon (like a comfortable little shelf or perch, asLEO do sometimes) even fiddling with the grip the way most people tap a pencil, and say (in comparison), firm graspwrapped cleanly around the grip, finger indexing to the trigger, arm and muscles tuned and positioned in a posture that clearly states "this gun is coming out any second".

Agreed. One could even view resting a hand on the butt of the firearm as an extra retention effort.

There is a HUGE differeance from hand on the rear of a firearm and hand gripping a firearm.
YUP, John Wayne and Gary Cooper used to rest their hand on their gun all the time.
 
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