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Thread: Open Carry at Utah Valley University

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    Well, after OCin' for a year and a half at UVU (CC for three years), MWAG call went in to campus police...

    I had just left a planning meeting with UVU student government for the upcoming Bob Bennett vs. Everyone else, Senatorial debate that our club is hosting, (April 2nd 12:00 @ UVU--shameless plug) when I took a ladder from the "Publicity Room" to adjust some of our club's banners that hang in the hallways. I was 15 feet from returning to the UVUSA offices when a VERY anxious cop approached me and very abruptly asked, "Can I see some I.D.?" So, not knowing whether I was required to show him I.D. or not while on campus, I complied and handed him my UVU ID and my CFP (I didn't think he was stopping me for carrying a ladder lol), then he said "No, I want your drivers license," and handed me back my UVU ID but he held on to my CFP. He then asked me why I had a gun on me and I said, "As a safety precaution, just like wearing my seatbelt." He then said, "No, why do you have it at school???" (meanwhile I'm holding a 10 foot ladder, wearing a heavy backpack and 2 FACULTY members walk by, say "hi" to me and two friends as well, ALL WHILE THIS COP IS ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!)

    [It sucked because I was looking so incredibly guilty standing there in the hallway at the exact spot where all these people on campus whom I have told over and over again that OC is legal (with a CFP) and with whom I have built relationships of trust with about OCing, were seeing me be detained right where I interact with all of them on nearly a daily basis. GRRRR all that trust got thrown out the window today ]

    Back on point: I told the cop, politely, that the reason I have a gun at school is because I am within my legal right to do so and because a majority of mass shootings have occurred on college campuses--and I don't want to be a victim. At this point, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, the cop was acting like he was just WAITING for me to make a wrong move or say something flippant so he would have an excuse to tackle me to the ground. I told him, AT LEAST THREE TIMES that it is completely legal for me to OC on UVU's campus because I have a CFP. He said he was going to give me a citation for disorderly conduct because they got a MWAG call and that I was absolutely wrong about OC on campus. At this point I started to get freaked out because the officer wasn't even allowing me to explain or use any logic, and his emotions were escalating VERY RAPIDLY. Thank goodness another officer arrived, who was much more level headed (but still didn't understand the law). Realizing that this wasn't going to be a 30 second stop, I remembered from reading previous threads on UCC.com that I should record any encounters with police. So I pulled out my iPhone, as casually as I could, and pressed record.

    I apologize for the jumpiness at points in the video, I couldn't see if I was getting the officer's "in the shot" or not, and you might need to turn up the volume full blast to hear it all, I accidentally covered up the mic at times and I didn't get a shot of the first officer (the one that scared the crap out of me) but you can hear him speak up about charging me with disorderly conduct AND trespassing later on in the clip.

    Now, I know that by posting this I am subjecting myself to public scorn and ridicule. I know there will be comments like, "Well, if it had been me, I would have said this..." and "You should have said this and this..." Please understand that I am a college student, nothing more, and that by the time I pressed record I was pretty shaken up by the first officer.
    Looking back and listening to the clip I can think of at least a dozen different things that I wish I had said too...
    Also understand, that when I did start recording, I was trying to deescalate a very tense situation that the previous officer had built up, and simply get the second officer to do most of the talking so I could have him put all of his opinions on the record, because the LAW was clearly no longer being discussed.
    I know there are a lot of you on this forum who, when you hear some of the officers' comments, are going to pull your hair out...The recording starts with the second officer telling me that I'm giving OC "a bad name."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjaQJs8eoMk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzyYu9dhIY0
    Let the scrutiny begin lol

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    Methinks that worthless piece of opinion enforcement needs to loose his job. IANAL, but....

    76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
    (1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
    (a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
    (b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
    (ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
    (iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
    (iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.

    (2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.
    (3) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.

    The charge would be thrown out if he had been stupid enough to actually try to tag you with it. It is obvious that you had no intentions, premeditated or otherwise, to cause public annoyance or alarm. Also, an order to leave campus would have been unlawful. Therefore refusing to leave would not have constituted grounds for a disorderly conduct charge either. OC is legal. Clearly you did not meet the requirements to be charged with this or any other violation or infraction.


    53A-3-503. Criminal trespass upon school property -- Penalty.

    (1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass upon school property if the person does the following:
    (a) enters or remains unlawfully upon school property, and:
    (i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to a person or damage to property on the school property;
    (ii) intends to commit a crime; or
    (iii) is reckless as to whether the person's presence will cause fear for the safety of another; or
    (b) enters or remains without authorization upon school property if notice against entry or remaining has been given by:
    (i) personal communication to the person by a school official or an individual with apparent authority to act for a school official;
    (ii) the posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of trespassers;
    (iii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude trespassers; or
    (iv) a current order of suspension or expulsion.
    (2) As used in this section:
    (a) "Enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
    (b) "School official" means a public or private school administrator or person in charge of a school program or activity.
    (c) "School property" means real property owned or occupied by a public or private school, including real property temporarily occupied for a school activity or program.
    (3) Violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    Once again, intent cannot be proven, so the charge would be dropped. OC certainly is not "reckless" because every cop would be "reckless" for carrying their arms in the open as well. I laughed my tail off when the guy said you could be charged with trespass if you didn't conceal your sidearm. roflmao.

    Gotta love the opinion enforcement, sarcastically speaking. Personally, I don't give a hoot what the public thinks about my open carry. If they want to legislate my right to carry in the open away, good luck with that and any politician's career who tries it. This is Utah. Until that happens, the ignorant popo can keep their mouths shut and their self-righteous opinions about scaring the poor sheeple to themselves. Yes, that is exactly what they are, a bunch of sheep, and see if I ever waste my time and risk my freedom to unholster my sidearm to help one of them when the hungry wolves come stalking their prey. I would just as soon walk on by and let them be victims because no good deed goes unpunished. The friendly neighborhood opinion enforcement will make sure of that.

    We should pull one over on them and petition for those two statutes, along with the standard"criminal trespass" law, to be changed to protect OCers and CCers who accidentally "print" in public or on school grounds. Let's turn this around in our favor. GoUtah.org has a link to all of the relevant policians contact info to get the ball rolling for next year's legal agenda. Let's let our representatives know that we have a problem with those statutes and lobby to get them fixed. They are way too vague and are obviously being used by ignorant opinion enforcement to hassle and inconvenience law-abiding citizens who choose to carry their arms in the open. Let's close up these over-abused legal loopholes and shut them down for good. Here is the link:

    http://www.goutah.org/address.html

    Also, if you ever need a good attorney to defend yourself against one of these bogus charges, your best bet is good ole Mitch Vilos. You can check out his website here:

    http://www.firearmslaw.com/

    Kevin




    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Methinks that worthless piece of opinion enforcement needs to loose his job. IANAL, but....



    Once again, intent cannot be proven, so the charge would be dropped. OC certainly is not "reckless" because every cop would be "reckless" for carrying their arms in the open as well. I laughed my tail off when the guy said you could be charged with trespass if you didn't conceal your sidearm. roflmao.

    Gotta love the opinion enforcement, sarcastically speaking. Personally, I don't give a hoot what the public thinks about my open carry. If they want to legislate my right to carry in the open away, good luck with that and any politician's career who tries it. This is Utah. Until that happens, the ignorant popo can keep their mouths shut and their self-righteous opinions about scaring the poor sheeple to themselves. Yes, that is exactly what they are, a bunch of sheep, and see if I ever waste my time and risk my freedom to unholster my sidearm to help one of them when the hungry wolves come stalking their prey. I would just as soon walk on by and let them be victims because no good deed goes unpunished. The friendly neighborhood opinion enforcement will make sure of that.

    We should pull one over on them and petition for those two statutes, along with the standard"criminal trespass" law, to be changed to protect OCers and CCers who accidentally "print" in public or on school grounds. Let's turn this around in our favor. GoUtah.org has a link to all of the relevant policians contact info to get the ball rolling for next year's legal agenda. Let's let our representatives know that we have a problem with those statutes and lobby to get them fixed. They are way too vague and are obviously being used by ignorant opinion enforcement to hassle and inconvenience law-abiding citizens who choose to carry their arms in the open. Let's close up these over-abused legal loopholes and shut them down for good. Here is the link:

    http://www.goutah.org/address.html

    Also, if you ever need a good attorney to defend yourself against one of these bogus charges, your best bet is good ole Mitch Vilos. You can check out his website here:

    http://www.firearmslaw.com/

    Kevin



    See highlight. So sir, why do you carry?

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    Hey, the site is finally back up. You did a great job MajorNickmo. The story was great, and was well done by Fox 13.

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    MajorNickmo, first off, you're the man!

    Secondly, I watched both youtube videos last night and it made my BLOOD BOIL! I actually laid in bed and couldn't sleep because I was so pissed. That college cop had no idea what he was talking about.

    So, I'm thinking our next OCDO dinner needs to be at the UVU cafeteria! I think we need to notify the campus police department, UVU president, Attorney General's office and KSL, KUTV and Fox 13 and go for it. They don't like Nick carrying on campus, wait until there's 70 of us. Very non-threatening of course. No plans for doing anything illegal whatsoever. Just a nice quiet dinner at the good ol' UVU cafeteria. What does everyone think?

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    MajorNickmo wrote: So Nick, are you still OCing on campus? Have you been contacted by UVU police since? Have you filed a complaint with anone about the issue? I would be interested to know where things are now. I would hope the director of DPS, BCI and even the Attorney General could educate the campus cops about the law and our rights they are supposed to be upholding.

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    The UVU President is hold a meeting tomorrow on this issue let them know what you think. You can e-mail reyesky@uvu.edu

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    rightsreserved wrote:
    The UVU President is hold a meeting tomorrow on this issue let them know what you think. You can e-mail reyesky@uvu.edu
    Thanks for the info. I just emailed the UVU president and mentioned the idea of us having an OC dinner there. It will be interesting to see if I get a reply.

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    rightsreserved wrote:
    The UVU President is hold a meeting tomorrow on this issue let them know what you think. You can e-mail reyesky@uvu.edu
    Emailed sent!
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

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    I just called and left a message with the UVU campus police chief. I hope I geta call back today so we can see where he stands on the issue.

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    Idoubt you will hear from him, they will wait until the admistration makes a statement. And if you do he will stand behind his officers.

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    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-ut...,3562516.story

    In case someone was interested in seeing the fox news bit.
    -banki-

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    BILLYBADBOY wrote:
    See highlight. So sir, why do you carry?
    I don't know about others, but I carry to defend myself and my loved ones. And not being a sworn peace officer with the full resources of the State to defend my split second decision, I am not looking to intervene on behalf of an unknown third party. Go search the archives for accounts of "innocent" looking third parties actually being the bad guy being arrested by an undercover cop. Talk to a cop about the dangers of getting into the middle of any kind of domestic dispute.

    Seems to me we are "danged if we do; and darned if we don't." If we promise to protect others we are some kind of Rambo of cop-wannabees looking to cause trouble. If we decline to intervene to use deadly force on behalf of another, we are somehow shirking our civic or moral duty.

    I'm all for being a good citizen and helping those in need. I'm not really interested in leaving my wife or kids a widow, ending up in prison, or being bankrupted over trying to help someone who didn't need it.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    ichigo wrote:
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-ut...,3562516.story

    In case someone was interested in seeing the fox news bit.
    -banki-
    Fox has always done a GREAT job at covering OC stories in an accurate and complete manner. With TJ they were there in west valley. Good to see them do it again. :celebrate

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    Is tomorrow's meeting with School administration open to the public?

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    Rottie wrote:
    Is tomorrow's meeting with School administration open to the public?
    If it's open to the public, I'm there!

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    I whipped an email up really quick, Here is the text of the email I sent:

    I would simply like to add my support to Nick, and all other cfp holders who choose to open carry. You cannot start arresting people for doing things simply because there is not law that says you CAN. This is a common law society, we have the right to do anything we choose unless there is a law stating that we CAN'T. Can you imagine a world where the cops could arrest you for anything they wanted to simply because there was no law that ALLOWED it? you could be arrested for anything! This would be a world in which the opinion of the officer is the last and ultimate word. The judge, jury, and executioner. PLEASE don't allow this opinion enforcement to continue, this could be the beginning of an unravelling society, if such things were allowed to continue.

    Whatever people's personal feelings on the subject of second amendment rights may be, I believe there is one thing we can all agree on. Law enforcement is in place to enforce existing laws, not to make the world a better place by deciding on a case by case basis what we can and cannot do. If this unfortunate attitude is not swiftly corrected, we will be setting a precedent which will swiftly affect all of us, in all facets of life. Even those who do not choose to carry a firearm enjoy many freedoms that they would be loathe to surrender to a corrupt and short sighted law enforcement agency.

    Please help us all preserve that which we hold most dear, our freedoms. Put an end to the tyrannical reign of the Opinion Enforcement Officers!


    Sincerely,
    Allen Lowe

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    I also sent an E-mail off and expressed my dissapointment. I encouraged the University to treat the second ammendment right just like any other.I pointed out that the University would not have censored speech even if the thoughts expressed were not that of the majority and even made a few others uncomfortable. I also voiced my hope and expectation that the university stop trying to intimidate it's students through threats of sanction or arrest for lawfully excercising constitutional rights. If the meeting is open to the public I will be taking time off work to go down if for nothing more to let my presence be known if I cannot be heard.

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    I just spent some time refuting some of the more idiotic comments on the news site forums. Man, some of the comments really lower my opinion of humanity overall. :shock:

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    Did anyone else catch the cop say in the first vid that the laws that apply to the public dont apply to him?

    This assclown needs to be out of work and fast.




    And in the 2nd vid the cop says 'God help the person that tries to take my right away." I guess God should start helping him.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    BILLYBADBOY wrote:
    See highlight. So sir, why do you carry?
    I don't know about others, but I carry to defend myself and my loved ones. And not being a sworn peace officer with the full resources of the State to defend my split second decision, I am not looking to intervene on behalf of an unknown third party. Go search the archives for accounts of "innocent" looking third parties actually being the bad guy being arrested by an undercover cop. Talk to a cop about the dangers of getting into the middle of any kind of domestic dispute.

    Seems to me we are "danged if we do; and darned if we don't." If we promise to protect others we are some kind of Rambo of cop-wannabees looking to cause trouble. If we decline to intervene to use deadly force on behalf of another, we are somehow shirking our civic or moral duty.

    I'm all for being a good citizen and helping those in need. I'm not really interested in leaving my wife or kids a widow, ending up in prison, or being bankrupted over trying to help someone who didn't need it.

    Charles
    Thanks Charles. I didn't answer his question because I sensed a large creature who lives under a bridge. It was a loaded question, and it was obvious why I carry. I feel the same way you do about trying to be a hero. It will never happen as long as it can be avoided. It's "self" defense, not public defense; every man and woman for themselves. My family is the exception of course. It is my duty and responsibility as a father to defend and protect them. To get back on topic though, an OC lunch at UVU sounds tasty.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    leeland wrote:
    I just spent some time refuting some of the more idiotic comments on the news site forums. Man, some of the comments really lower my opinion of humanity overall. :shock:
    I did a fair amount of that as well. It's amazing how many people hear something, and then say that it's law without checking it for themselves. I hope they don't become LEO's too.

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    lallenlowe wrote:
    I whipped an email up really quick, Here is the text of the email I sent:

    I would simply like to add my support to Nick, and all other cfp holders who choose to open carry. You cannot start arresting people for doing things simply because there is not law that says you CAN. This is a common law society, we have the right to do anything we choose unless there is a law stating that we CAN'T. Can you imagine a world where the cops could arrest you for anything they wanted to simply because there was no law that ALLOWED it? you could be arrested for anything! This would be a world in which the opinion of the officer is the last and ultimate word. The judge, jury, and executioner. PLEASE don't allow this opinion enforcement to continue, this could be the beginning of an unravelling society, if such things were allowed to continue.

    Whatever people's personal feelings on the subject of second amendment rights may be, I believe there is one thing we can all agree on. Law enforcement is in place to enforce existing laws, not to make the world a better place by deciding on a case by case basis what we can and cannot do. If this unfortunate attitude is not swiftly corrected, we will be setting a precedent which will swiftly affect all of us, in all facets of life. Even those who do not choose to carry a firearm enjoy many freedoms that they would be loathe to surrender to a corrupt and short sighted law enforcement agency.

    Please help us all preserve that which we hold most dear, our freedoms. Put an end to the tyrannical reign of the Opinion Enforcement Officers!


    Sincerely,
    Allen Lowe
    There really is a law on the books saying you can open carry, it specifies that:

    76-1-105. Common law crimes abolished.
    Common law crimes are abolished and no conduct is a crime unless made so by this code, other applicable statute or ordinance.
    Notice also that it abolishes common law crimes.

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    My personal feelings from the last few days....

    Trolley Square, Utah, Virginia Tech, Columbine, Northern Illinois University, University of Alabama-Huntsville, University of South Florida, Dawson College: Montreal, Canada, Fort Hood, and Ohio State University just yesterday.

    For some reason, mass shootings like to occur on college campuses and other "Gun Free Zones". Perhaps it is because bad people go to where they know they will have the least resistance in carrying out their diabolical plans. I believe this to hold true from a petty thief all the way up to a fascist dictator.

    I did not break any laws http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/sh...un_law_pdf.pdf (page 3 and 5 in particular) nor did I disrupt school activities as is evident from the videos I recorded. A student called in to campus police and asked if I was legally allowed to carry a gun. The student did not call in panic or to report a crime, it was simply a question, and I believe it should have been handled as such.

    When the officers approached me and I realized that it was not going to be a simple check to see if I had a Concealed Firearm Permit, and I when I realized that it was going to be my word and Utah law against the opinions of two law enforcement officers, I pulled out my iPhone and pressed record. I did so, not to make the officers look unintelligent but to have a personal record of the incident. My reasoning to press the matter beyond that is explained in great detail throughout dozens of posts on the following website: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...;sk=t&sd=a

    I have been open carrying for a long time, well before I had a CFP, as it was and is allowed in the State of Utah. I do not believe that the gun laws of Utah and the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution are no longer applicable to me while attending my accounting classes. I refuse to be a victim. There is not a uniformed officer outside of each of my classrooms, nor do I expect there to be. It is not their duty legally or otherwise to protect me, I am the only one responsible for me.

    I have never open carried to make a point, to be "cool", or because I have some sort of "Napoleon complex". Those that know me, know that this has never been the case. I choose to open carry because I am legally able to do so and because it simply works better for me.

    “A right unexercised is a right lost.” Opencarry.org

    I ALWAYS go about open carrying in a quiet, dignified, and polite manner. I am always respectful of those around me who have never seen a gun before, by being approachable to have a conversation about Utah gun laws, to talk about why I choose to carry, and to talk about the responsibility that goes along with carrying. People that know me and attend classes with me repeatedly thank me for carrying in their classrooms and for being willing and able to carry a gun at my side. It just sits there, it does not move. I do not remove it from its holster; I do not touch it. It is just an object that sits discreetly by my side.

    And that is where my gun stays; unless I am, or God forbid my fellow classmates, are ever in danger of losing our lives at the hand of another who wishes to take our lives before law enforcement can arrive. I will refer you back to the growing list of colleges that have to deal with this kind of tragedy. I am not paranoid, simply aware of my responsibility, and mine only, to protect myself. I carry a gun as a safety precaution, just like wearing a seat belt in a moving car.

    Thank you to those that have an open mind and understand this logical approach. I am not an activist nor did I intend for this to go public beyond my campus or utahconcealedcarry.com.
    This has not been easy to handle and I sincerely thank those who are supporting me and thank you to all of those who also carry legally and quietly everyday. God bless you.



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    Well said MajorNickmo.

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