Open Carry at Utah Valley University

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utbagpiper wrote:

BILLYBADBOY wrote:

See highlight. So sir, why do you carry?

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I don't know about others, but I carry to defend myself and my loved ones. And not being a sworn peace officer with the full resources of the State to defend my split second decision, I am not looking to intervene on behalf of an unknown third party. Go search the archives for accounts of "innocent" looking third parties actually being the bad guy being arrested by an undercover cop. Talk to a cop about the dangers of getting into the middle of any kind of domestic dispute.

Seems to me we are "danged if we do; and darned if we don't." If we promise to protect others we are some kind of Rambo of cop-wannabees looking to cause trouble. If we decline to intervene to use deadly force on behalf of another, we are somehow shirking our civic or moral duty.

I'm all for being a good citizen and helping those in need. I'm not really interested in leaving my wife or kids a widow, ending up in prison, or being bankrupted over trying to help someone who didn't need it.

Charles

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Thanks Charles. I didn't answer his question because I sensed a large creature who lives under a bridge. It was a loaded question, and it was obvious why I carry. I feel the same way you do about trying to be a hero. It will never happen as long as it can be avoided. It's "self" defense, not public defense; every man and woman for themselves. My family is the exception of course. It is my duty and responsibility as a father to defend and protect them. To get back on topic though, an OC lunch at UVU sounds tasty.

Kevin

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leeland wrote:

I just spent some time refuting some of the more idiotic comments on the news site forums. Man, some of the comments really lower my opinion of humanity overall. :shock:

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I did a fair amount of that as well. It's amazing how many people hear something, and then say that it's law without checking it for themselves. I hope they don't become LEO's too.

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lallenlowe wrote:

I whipped an email up really quick, Here is the text of the email I sent:

I would simply like to add my support to Nick, and all other cfp holders who choose to open carry. You cannot start arresting people for doing things simply because there is not law that says you CAN. This is a common law society, we have the right to do anything we choose unless there is a law stating that we CAN'T. Can you imagine a world where the cops could arrest you for anything they wanted to simply because there was no law that ALLOWED it? you could be arrested for anything! This would be a world in which the opinion of the officer is the last and ultimate word. The judge, jury, and executioner. PLEASE don't allow this opinion enforcement to continue, this could be the beginning of an unravelling society, if such things were allowed to continue.

Whatever people's personal feelings on the subject of second amendment rights may be, I believe there is one thing we can all agree on. Law enforcement is in place to enforce existing laws, not to make the world a better place by deciding on a case by case basis what we can and cannot do. If this unfortunate attitude is not swiftly corrected, we will be setting a precedent which will swiftly affect all of us, in all facets of life. Even those who do not choose to carry a firearm enjoy many freedoms that they would be loathe to surrender to a corrupt and short sighted law enforcement agency.

Please help us all preserve that which we hold most dear, our freedoms. Put an end to the tyrannical reign of the Opinion Enforcement Officers!


Sincerely,
Allen Lowe

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There really is a law on the books saying you can open carry, it specifies that:

76-1-105. Common law crimes abolished.
Common law crimes are abolished and no conduct is a crime unless made so by this code, other applicable statute or ordinance.

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Notice also that it abolishes common law crimes.

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My personal feelings from the last few days....

Trolley Square, Utah, Virginia Tech, Columbine, Northern Illinois University, University of Alabama-Huntsville, University of South Florida, Dawson College: Montreal, Canada, Fort Hood, and Ohio State University just yesterday.

For some reason, mass shootings like to occur on college campuses and other "Gun Free Zones". Perhaps it is because bad people go to where they know they will have the least resistance in carrying out their diabolical plans. I believe this to hold true from a petty thief all the way up to a fascist dictator.

I did not break any laws http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/shared/gun_law_pdf.pdf (page 3 and 5 in particular) nor did I disrupt school activities as is evident from the videos I recorded. A student called in to campus police and asked if I was legally allowed to carry a gun. The student did not call in panic or to report a crime, it was simply a question, and I believe it should have been handled as such.

When the officers approached me and I realized that it was not going to be a simple check to see if I had a Concealed Firearm Permit, and I when I realized that it was going to be my word and Utah law against the opinions of two law enforcement officers, I pulled out my iPhone and pressed record. I did so, not to make the officers look unintelligent but to have a personal record of the incident. My reasoning to press the matter beyond that is explained in great detail throughout dozens of posts on the following website: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7775&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I have been open carrying for a long time, well before I had a CFP, as it was and is allowed in the State of Utah. I do not believe that the gun laws of Utah and the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution are no longer applicable to me while attending my accounting classes. I refuse to be a victim. There is not a uniformed officer outside of each of my classrooms, nor do I expect there to be. It is not their duty legally or otherwise to protect me, I am the only one responsible for me.

I have never open carried to make a point, to be "cool", or because I have some sort of "Napoleon complex". Those that know me, know that this has never been the case. I choose to open carry because I am legally able to do so and because it simply works better for me.

“A right unexercised is a right lost.” Opencarry.org

I ALWAYS go about open carrying in a quiet, dignified, and polite manner. I am always respectful of those around me who have never seen a gun before, by being approachable to have a conversation about Utah gun laws, to talk about why I choose to carry, and to talk about the responsibility that goes along with carrying. People that know me and attend classes with me repeatedly thank me for carrying in their classrooms and for being willing and able to carry a gun at my side. It just sits there, it does not move. I do not remove it from its holster; I do not touch it. It is just an object that sits discreetly by my side.

And that is where my gun stays; unless I am, or God forbid my fellow classmates, are ever in danger of losing our lives at the hand of another who wishes to take our lives before law enforcement can arrive. I will refer you back to the growing list of colleges that have to deal with this kind of tragedy. I am not paranoid, simply aware of my responsibility, and mine only, to protect myself. I carry a gun as a safety precaution, just like wearing a seat belt in a moving car.

Thank you to those that have an open mind and understand this logical approach. I am not an activist nor did I intend for this to go public beyond my campus or utahconcealedcarry.com.
This has not been easy to handle and I sincerely thank those who are supporting me and thank you to all of those who also carry legally and quietly everyday. God bless you.

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Well said MajorNickmo.

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Yes, well-said indeed. You handled this whole situation admirably, and I commend you for keeping such a cool head with the opinion enforcement that harassed you that day. I would not have been so tolerant.

Kevin

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I've thought of this a few times, but haven't posted it yet. With Chief Brewer saying it's illegal to OC on campus and the LEO's trying to pin something on MajorNickmo, I just gotta ask this. What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? It is on their heads to prove that he did something wrong, and since there is no law saying that OC is illegal, then he is innocent. He is not guilty until they can PROVE it. They can't.

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mqondo wrote:

I've thought of this a few times, but haven't posted it yet. With Chief Brewer saying it's illegal to OC on campus and the LEO's trying to pin something on MajorNickmo, I just gotta ask this. What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? It is on their heads to prove that he did something wrong, and since there is no law saying that OC is illegal, then he is innocent. He is not guilty until they can PROVE it. They can't.

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You are correct, there is no law against open carry on campus, what Chief Brewer is counting on, and is true for most of us, is that we can't afford the time or cost of dealing with it or fighting the charge.

Edit: spelling

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rpyne wrote:

mqondo wrote:

I've thought of this a few times, but haven't posted it yet. With Chief Brewer saying it's illegal to OC on campus and the LEO's trying to pin something on MajorNickmo, I just gotta ask this. What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? It is on their heads to prove that he did something wrong, and since there is no law saying that OC is illegal, then he is innocent. He is not guilty until they can PROVE it. They can't.

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You are correct, there is no law against open carry on campus, what Chief Brewer is counting on, and is true for most of us, is that we can't afford the time or cost of dealing with it or fighting the charge.

Edit: spelling

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Yup. That's exactly what they are counting on. If you have your recorder going during a confrontation where it leads to a bogus trespassing or disorderly conduct charge, it's easy enough to get these thrown out. In fact, after you are done making the opinion enforcement look like an ass in front of the judge, you can then turn the tables on the officer by filing harassment charges against them. If you can prove that they knew you were not breaking the law when they charged you, it gets even worse. They can loose their job for that.

No self-respecting law enforcement agency can reason why they would keep someone employed who has a biased agenda to harass and falsely accuse law-abiding citizens with BS charges just because they disagree with what the citizen is doing when not regulated by statute. Unless the OEO can prove that you had INTENT to go to a public place and cause inconvenience and/or alarm to the sheeple, then the charge will never stick. They must also abide by the protocols of titles 77-7-15, 77-7-16 and 77-7-17 concerning a terry stop when they approach you. If they jack it up, then take them to the cleaners. Remember, they must have articulable reasonable suspicion or probable cause to beleive that you have and/or are in the commision of a crime to stop and detain you for questioning, period! The fact that the person who called in the "question" about whether it was legal or not to open carry on campus does not constitute probable cause to approach the person carrying the sidearm. It's like running up to a guy dressed in drag and screaming, "why are you wearing that? You are going to offend somebody! Change your clothes right now and take the stuffing out of your shirt before I charge you with disorderly conduct!" They cannot harass you for something you "might" do. Can you imagine what it would be like if an OEO could run amuck like that? You could be harassed for picking your nose in public. What a bunch of dumbasses.

Kevin

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I really doubt that calling the public persons that do not have our our your views "sheeple" will be looked upon with favor when all of this goes to court.

I believe that at some point there will be a suit or legisaltion to clear all of this up.

Insulting the public, Officers, etc will only hurt the cause.

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rpyne wrote:

mqondo wrote:

I've thought of this a few times, but haven't posted it yet. With Chief Brewer saying it's illegal to OC on campus and the LEO's trying to pin something on MajorNickmo, I just gotta ask this. What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? It is on their heads to prove that he did something wrong, and since there is no law saying that OC is illegal, then he is innocent. He is not guilty until they can PROVE it. They can't.

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You are correct, there is no law against open carry on campus, what Chief Brewer is counting on, and is true for most of us, is that we can't afford the time or cost of dealing with it or fighting the charge.

Edit: spelling

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Unless we all get together and help pay for said attorney fees. There are a lot of us on this site, and on UCC, that would most likely pitch in to help out with this. One or two of us might not be able to afford it, but thousands would.

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Perhaps, I would like the conduct on the net cleaned up before I threw money at this cause. I could see some of the content being shown to a Judge or Jury by a savy attorney and being embarassed.

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BILLYBADBOY wrote:

Perhaps,  I would like the conduct on the net cleaned up before I threw money at this cause.  I could see some of the content being shown to a Judge or Jury by a savy attorney and being embarassed.

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I wouldn't say that it's a cause that we are backing. It is our right to keep and bear arms. People have their opinions, and will write what they want, but this isn't about what someone writes or thinks. It's about us backing a guy who is doing nothing wrong and is being harassed by LEO's for it. Or rather OEO's.

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I'm ready to throw money at it. Just tell me where to point my pay-pal account. I can fork over about 100 smackers for now and more later if needed if it's ligit.

Kevin

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BILLYBADBOY wrote:

Perhaps, I would like the conduct on the net cleaned up before I threw money at this cause. I could see some of the content being shown to a Judge or Jury by a savy attorney and being embarassed.

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I'm not afraid of my content being shown in court. I have said nothing for which I am ashamed of or would be embarrassed to show in front of the public. It's not my fault if the truth hurts. A sheep is a sheep is a sheep and and OEO is an OEO is an OEO. lol I appreciate your concern and value your opinion, however. Thanks.

Kevin

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I am sure you do.

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I applaud Major Nickmo for his actions and handling of the situation that occurred at UVU. I think he made the right choice in concealing his gun given the threats made to him by police at the time. He had the courage to video the events and to share them with the community. However I do not think that he should push this to the point he is arrested. I am sure we would all chip into a legal defense fund for him but it is much easier to encourage something like this when it is someone elses skin. Additionally the time this will take to run its course through the court system is about the same ammount it will take for us to pressure our legislators to fix the problem with clarifying legislation. I also do not like the fact that a jury or a judge could err and set poor legal precedent for all of us.

Lets fight this battle Major Nickmo but not in the courts right now. Let's fight iton the hillby contacting our representatives now and pestering them all year. Keep people talking about this and make as many friends and allies that you can. If any disagree I expect to see them to be the one to open carry on UVU and let it be their skin that is on the line. If there were no other option I'd do it myself but there is another way without the risk of incarceration and possible life altering conviction. The written law is on our side but will a judge and jury agree given that our own attorney general will not weigh in on it? Be safe, be strong, be smart!

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Rottie wrote:

I applaud Major Nickmo for his actions and handling of the situation that occurred at UVU. I think he made the right choice in concealing his gun given the threats made to him by police at the time. He had the courage to video the events and to share them with the community. However I do not think that he should push this to the point he is arrested. I am sure we would all chip into a legal defense fund for him but it is much easier to encourage something like this when it is someone elses skin. Additionally the time this will take to run its course through the court system is about the same ammount it will take for us to pressure our legislators to fix the problem with clarifying legislation. I also do not like the fact that a jury or a judge could err and set poor legal precedent for all of us.

Lets fight this battle Major Nickmo but not in the courts right now. Let's fight iton the hillby contacting our representatives now and pestering them all year. Keep people talking about this and make as many friends and allies that you can. If any disagree I expect to see them to be the one to open carry on UVU and let it be their skin that is on the line. If there were no other option I'd do it myself but there is another way without the risk of incarceration and possible life altering conviction. The written law is on our side but will a judge and jury agree given that our own attorney general will not weigh in on it? Be safe, be strong, be smart!

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This makes sense. Someone with a brain.

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Has there been any word/statement from President Holland? Any statements from the officers. I am currently a UVU student as well & OC, very curious to see how this turns out.

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bmeldrum wrote:

Has there been any word/statement from President Holland? Any statements from the officers. I am currently a UVU student as well & OC, very curious to see how this turns out.

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Kyle Reyes who works in the office of the president at UVU is out until Tuesday march 23