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Thread: NY Times Article

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    “I’m all for open-carry laws,” said Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun rights advocacy organization in Washington State. “But I don’t think flaunting it is very productive for our cause. It just scares people.”
    Alan what scares people are criminals, not an inanimate object. There is no flaunting. I am just going about my daily business.
    ”You have to wonder where their next frontier will be,” said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “Will gun owners start trying to carry firearms openly into banks, on subways and buses, in schools?”


    Mr. Helmke, I already carry it into the bank, on subways, ligtrail and buses. I do not carry into the school. But perhaps I should, it might just prevent another school shooting.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/us/08guns.html

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    “Will gun owners start trying to carry firearms openly into banks, on subways and buses, in schools?”
    Washington state:
    banks: yes
    public transportation(buses / trains / ferry): yes
    school property: yes

    Utah:
    Schools: yes


    I think this guy is clueless.......


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    gogodawgs wrote:
    “I’m all for open-carry laws,” said Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun rights advocacy organization in Washington State. “But I don’t think flaunting it is very productive for our cause. It just scares people.”
    Alan what scares people are criminals, not an inanimate object. There is no flaunting. I am just going about my daily business.
    ”You have to wonder where their next frontier will be,” said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “Will gun owners start trying to carry firearms openly into banks, on subways and buses, in schools?”


    Mr. Helmke, I already carry it into the bank, on subways, ligtrail and buses. I do not carry into the school. But perhaps I should, it might just prevent another school shooting.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/us/08guns.html
    GOGO, you are far smarter than this suggests.

    First, after speaking with Gottlieb on the phone Monday, I'm not at all certain this is an accurate quote.

    Second, open carry DOES scare some people, particularly when it is practiced in such a manner, and perhaps with such equipment, that it is intended to get attention when quite the opposite should be the goal. Some people simply are not used to or comfortable with the appearance of an openly-carried sidearm, andwe allknow it. Rather than declare war on Gottliebfor acknowledging the obvious, maybe you should do something today to break down the stereotype.

    You (in the collective sense) don't want to draw attention to yourself, you just want to go about your own business and be pretty much ignored or overlooked.

    I've said repeatedly there is a learning curve on OC and most people are behind it. Some way behind it. That's not a crime, that's an opportunity, and be prepared to not always win over someone philosophically. That's life.

    Just because someone like Gottlieb is big enough to acknowledge that something he supports makes others uncomfortable to the point of fright, that doesn't make him your enemy.It could, and perhaps should, makehim your conscience?

    Give that some thought.

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    I have to agree with Dave on this. There are some on this forum that delight in OCing things like a shorty shotgun, tactical thigh rig, etc. Not necessarily the Wa forum, but the forum in general. You know who I mean as you have read the threads. Pick your firearm and method of carry with this in mind. NO, this is not giving in to anybodys "fear" of OC, but instead it is avoiding the misconception of being "in their face."

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    +1 Trigger DR and Dave
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Dave Workman wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    “I’m all for open-carry laws,” said Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun rights advocacy organization in Washington State. “But I don’t think flaunting it is very productive for our cause. It just scares people.”
    Alan what scares people are criminals, not an inanimate object. There is no flaunting. I am just going about my daily business.
    ”You have to wonder where their next frontier will be,” said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “Will gun owners start trying to carry firearms openly into banks, on subways and buses, in schools?”


    Mr. Helmke, I already carry it into the bank, on subways, ligtrail and buses. I do not carry into the school. But perhaps I should, it might just prevent another school shooting.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/us/08guns.html
    GOGO, you are far smarter than this suggests.

    First, after speaking with Gottlieb on the phone Monday, I'm not at all certain this is an accurate quote.

    Second, open carry DOES scare some people, particularly when it is practiced in such a manner, and perhaps with such equipment, that it is intended to get attention when quite the opposite should be the goal. Some people simply are not used to or comfortable with the appearance of an openly-carried sidearm, andwe allknow it. Rather than declare war on Gottliebfor acknowledging the obvious, maybe you should do something today to break down the stereotype.

    You (in the collective sense) don't want to draw attention to yourself, you just want to go about your own business and be pretty much ignored or overlooked.

    I've said repeatedly there is a learning curve on OC and most people are behind it. Some way behind it. That's not a crime, that's an opportunity, and be prepared to not always win over someone philosophically. That's life.

    Just because someone like Gottlieb is big enough to acknowledge that something he supports makes others uncomfortable to the point of fright, that doesn't make him your enemy.It could, and perhaps should, makehim your conscience?

    Give that some thought.
    Dave,

    You are correct there is a fringe part of OC that are attention grabbers. Perhaps the quote doesn't represent what Mr Gottlieb said well, I have been misquoted as well. I have tried to use my time to educate one or two of the younger OCers so that they understand that their appearance and attitude are important. Thanks for your thoughts. I would still like to see a more supportive quote come from Mr Gottlieb in the future.
    Live Free or Die!

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Dave,

    You are correct there is a fringe part of OC that are attention grabbers. Perhaps the quote doesn't represent what Mr Gottlieb said well, I have been misquoted as well. I have tried to use my time to educate one or two of the younger OCers so that they understand that their appearance and attitude are important. Thanks for your thoughts. I would still like to see a more supportive quote come from Mr Gottlieb in the future.
    Fair enough. I'm not at all certain what else he could say. The Times noted that he supports OC, but he was candid enough to indicate there are people who get freaked by the practice.

    Presumably we're all in the same boat. We may say things differently, but they ultimately mean the same thing.

    Let's not make Gottlieb the issue here anyway. The issue, and the challenge, is for OC activists to overcome by patience and education, and certainly by good example rather than poor conduct.

    Behave yourselves and give me lots to write about that continually shows how extreme, hoplophobic and narrow-minded people in the "other camp" happen to be.



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    Part of the problem is that somewhere along the line some have lost the ability to empathize with others' sensabilities. There is also, a fine line between helping one's cause and harming it. I think that is what Alan was referring to. All the bluster in the world will not change the fact that some people ARE intimidated by firearms.
    I think if we remember that unfortunate fact, and apply it to our open carry activities (which I'm pretty sure all here do), then we all continue to advance our cause, which is twofold, in my opinion. One is to practice our God given right, and the other is to educate the masses.
    But, just as in everything else in life, we must remember what our mom and dad taught us long ago. "Discretion is the better part of valor."

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Also something to think about, we cannot control what other's are afraid of, we cannot control how they feel about things (inanimate objects).

    I listened to Dave Ross' show yesterday during this discussion with D Workman. Ross kept saying that people should "feel safe". We all know that that feeling of safety/security is an illusion. That's why we choose to carry firearms.

    Someone's need to feel safe doesn't trump our right to bear arms.
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    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

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    I would say that I feel safer with firearms around, don't I have that right too?

    Certainly personnal experience and education (or lackthere of) guide peoples attitudes and phobias. I remember being at a gun show years ago when it struck me that I wasn't the least bitupset at hearing all of the actions being closed,triggers being pulled,seeing all thefirearms being pointed in various directions, mainly up in the air though.

    What I'd like to see is a time when someone can walk down the street without someone else thinking thatthey are a problem, whether they chose to carry or not.




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