Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: ARS 4.229 No Firearms Signs

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    132

    Post imported post

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...mp;DocType=ARS

    The Flagstaff Mall has a sign posted at the entrance to Sears referencing ARS 4.229.

    Looking up that particular law, my understanding is that it only applies to Concealed Carry. Also, it seems it is refering to retailers with a liquor license.

    Does that mean OC would be ok? Also i talkes about it not applying to people who are not residents of Arizona. Since i am a resident of Nevada, does that mean i cannot get in trouble? That sounds like too lenient of a law.

    So am i interpreting it right? Does that sign even mean anything being posted on a Mall and not a place that serves alcohol?



  2. #2
    Regular Member March Hare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Arridzona - Flatlander
    Posts
    355

    Post imported post

    I think they've posted the wrong sign, unless it's a restaurant that sells alcohol for consumption on site.

    If you OC there, the worst that can happen is that they ask you to leave.
    If you don't, you can get charged with tresspassing.

    I think they're confused....

    p.s. unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't matter what state you're from, you're IN Arizona and state law applies.
    $2 Bill - Calling Card of the 2A Movement
    If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
    Seriously, who is John Galt?
    Vires et honestas

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    132

    Post imported post

    Its the Flagstaff mall, i dont think they sell any alcohol on site.

    So a sign referencing 4.229 does not apply to open carry correct?
    If the sign is legally posted, at an appropriate establishment, it seems that open carry is not prohibited, just CC. Am i interpreting that correctly?


    And I though that in Arizona you have to abide by the local laws, but it seems like according to the bolded statement, being a resident of another state would get you off the hook if you did break the law in this case providing the sign was correctly posted at an appropriate establishment. Or am i interpreting something wrong?

    C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
    1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section prior to the violation.
    2. Any one or more of the following applies:
    (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
    (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.


  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    132

    Post imported post

    I think i am missing something somewhere. Ive read multiple times on here that OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol for on site consumption is illegal, but cannot find the ARS that states that.

    It really sucks being under 21 and not being able to get a CCW.

  5. #5
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907

    Post imported post

    paintsnow wrote:
    I think i am missing something somewhere. Ive read multiple times on here that OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol for on site consumption is illegal, but cannot find the ARS that states that.
    ARS 4-244.29(c)

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    132

    Post imported post

    azcdlfred wrote:
    paintsnow wrote:
    I think i am missing something somewhere. Ive read multiple times on here that OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol for on site consumption is illegal, but cannot find the ARS that states that.
    ARS 4-244.29(c)
    That would be it!

    Thanks.

    So basically, the sign means nothing since the Mall is not licensed to sell for on site consumption.

    Any insight on the non resident part of the law?

  7. #7
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907

    Post imported post

    paintsnow wrote:
    Its the Flagstaff mall, i dont think they sell any alcohol on site.

    So a sign referencing 4.229 does not apply to open carry correct?
    If the sign is legally posted, at an appropriate establishment, it seems that open carry is not prohibited, just CC. Am i interpreting that correctly?


    And I though that in Arizona you have to abide by the local laws, but it seems like according to the bolded statement, being a resident of another state would get you off the hook if you did break the law in this case providing the sign was correctly posted at an appropriate establishment. Or am i interpreting something wrong?

    C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
    1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section prior to the violation.
    2. Any one or more of the following applies:
    (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
    (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
    ARS 4.229 only applies to places that serve booze. The mall can still ban firearms as a property right. Sounds like they are not using the correct signage. Regardless of the signage, if they ask you to leave because they ban firearms, you must or risk a tresspassing arrest (open caryring makes you more prone to this).

    You can neveropen carry where booze is sold (ARS 4.244.29(c)).

    The "affirmative" defenses (e.g., out of state resident) don't get you off the hook with the arresting officer. Affirmative defenses are used in court, after you've been arrested and wipe out your life savings paying for an attorney and court costs.

    The sign is required to be posted near the liquor license, not the front door. In many cases, that's in a back hallway somewhere where the public never goes.

    We (AzCDL) are working to get this language fixed. A couple of gun bills were filed but aren't going anywhere this year.The signage fix has been added to a liquor bill HB 2002 (if I recall correctly). More sausage making.

  8. #8
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    907

    Post imported post

    paintsnow wrote:
    Any insight on the non resident part of the law?
    Just some wierdness that got drafted in the bill. With a lot of bucks and a high-priced attorney, it could probably be challenged since it gives preference to non-residents.

    Senator Harper had been trying to get some form of Restaurant Carry passed for at least 10 years.The NRA"helped" with the language. Now, there is a lot of work needed to make it better.

    Prior to moving to Arizona and co-founding AzCDL, I lived in Vriginia for 15 years. In VA,you could open carry into any place that served alcohol and thelaw onconsuming alcohol was based on your blood alcohol level, just like with automobile driving.


  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,098

    Post imported post

    paintsnow wrote:
    azcdlfred wrote:
    paintsnow wrote:
    I think i am missing something somewhere. Ive read multiple times on here that OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol for on site consumption is illegal, but cannot find the ARS that states that.
    ARS 4-244.29(c)
    That would be it!

    Thanks.

    So basically, the sign means nothing since the Mall is not licensed to sell for on site consumption.

    Any insight on the non resident part of the law?
    Are there any restaurants in the mall that serve for on-site? That might be the source of their confusion? I don't think it would cover the entire mall, just the portion covered by the liquor licence?

    WARNING: I am not a lawyer or even a law student. I'm just a guy who tries to convert the law to plain English. That's probably gonna put me in jail some day... :what:




  10. #10
    Regular Member mFonz77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sierra Vista, AZ
    Posts
    265

    Post imported post

    I would not want to test the waters, hence my CWP. I see plenty of "improper" signage, but as I'm not a lawyer and don't know the case law, I wouldn't know if that constitutes a "reasonable" request by the proprietors or not. I would think it would.

    My understanding of this section is that if you have a CWP, and the establishment is not posted, you can carry openly or concealed. If it is posted, then you cannot carry, either openly or concealed.

    A good rule of thumb: if the place is not posted, you can probably assume OC is ok. If you're asked to leave, comply, then just conceal from then on if you have to go in there for whatever reason.
    My location says I am from Sierra Vista, AZ which is where I live now but I actually lived in MO for 26 years! So please stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when I post in the Missouri forum!

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    It seems there cite is wrong but there intent maybe clear. Murky waters indeed, as no one wants to be the first jump in.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    132

    Post imported post

    Hum, interesting differences between states.

    In Nevada, it seems that members enter public libraries because the no firearms signs only apply to CC, making it legal to OC. They also go into places until asked to leave, as well as doing walks down the strip even though it is a known area for police harassment.

    Ill probably stay out of the mall OCing, unless i feel like getting kicked out some day.

    And Nevada, like Virginia, bar carry is unrestricted and based on BAC, same as driving.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •