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Thread: Topeka City Council considers banning open carry!

  1. #1
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    see http://www.ksnt.com/news/local/story...v9EJcEnig.cspx

    Time for Topeka and all Kansas open carriers to take action, organize, and fight to limit the reach of the new ordinance - certainly properly holstred handguns should remain legal under city law - as the city police chief said, criminals carry concealed!

    Am looking forward to seeing open carriers testify before future city council meetings on this issue

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    Earl Mcintosh (a user here on the forum)hasbeen the point man forOpen Carry in Topeka and is quoted in the local paper:

    http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-..._ban_discussed

    I challenge City Attorney Kyle Smith and the City Council at large to look at the other states and cities which honor the citizens right to bear arms (carry) openly, specifically the metropolitan D.C. area of Northern VA, where thecounties/cities of Fairfax, Arlingtion, Alexandria, and Loudon County... having a population that dwarfs Topeka by 1200% have absolutely no isses with open carry. The Northern VA metro area has all the issues Topeka deals with, gangs, crazy people, etc but still respects citizens rights. What the City Council needs to understand is this is a simple training issue for the police, if they do not know the proper way to respond to law abiding men and women openly carying handguns they need to ask thier fellow brothers and sisters of the law (in localities which allow OC) for advice.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Earl Mcintosh (a user here on the forum)hasbeen the point man forOpen Carry in Topeka and is quoted in the local paper:

    http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-..._ban_discussed

    I challenge City Attorney Kyle Smith and the City Council at large to look at the other states and cities which honor the citizens right to bear arms (carry) openly, specifically the metropolitan D.C. area of Northern VA, where thecounties/cities of Fairfax, Arlingtion, Alexandria, and Loudon County... having a population that dwarfs Topeka by 1200% have absolutely no isses with open carry. The Northern VA metro area has all the issues Topeka deals with, gangs, crazy people, etc but still respects citizens rights. What the City Council needs to understand is this is a simple training issue for the police, if they do not know the proper way to respond to law abiding men and women openly carying handguns they need to ask thier fellow brothers and sisters of the law (in localities which allow OC) for advice.
    You guys ned to get organized fast and get the city council's attention. Hopefully a large open carry continegent will attend meetings and respectfully ask that whatever they do, tha ordianary unintoxicated holstered handgun carry remin legal. Certainy it is not rational for the council to pas a "hide your guns" ordiance only allowing concealed carry.

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    Mike,

    Thank you for all your support!! We have been organizing for months. Last night we had a 150 open carry supporters at the city council planning meeting.

    Nakedshoplifert,

    I will use your example! Thank you and feel free to post ideas and thoughts anytime you deem necessary. You are from Topeka and one of us.

    I will keep people informed,

    Earl

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    marine0300 wrote:
    Mike,

    Thank you for all your support!! We have been organizing for months. Last night we had a 150 open carry supporters at the city council planning meeting.
    Were they open carrying there at the time? Is that allowed under KS and Topeka law?

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    The city has metal detectors so no. Several did wear empty holsters

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    marine0300 wrote:
    The city has metal detectors so no. Several did wear empty holsters
    OK, school me up on this - why do metal detectors mean anything?

    I walk thru them carrying at the Va. Gen. Assembly all teh time - what KS law allows them to ban gun carry at public meetings?

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    I am not surprised to read this. I thought the Chief of Police might get around to this. I hope and pray my brothers and sisters in arms can fight this successfully!

    Keep us informed to what is happening.

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    New poll to hit! "Should the Topeka City Council repeal the ordinance allowing the open carry of legal firearms?"

    http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-...n_carry_policy





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    Open Carry on Public Property is Legal in Kansas, as the State does not regulateOpen Carry. The State only regulates Concealed Carry on this issue, as is codified under 21-4201(4). Law Enforcement should be aware Open Carry is Legal, however; you should too be aware that under KSA 12-16 124, Local Governments and Counties may regulate Open Carry of LoadedFirearms on ones Person, or Carry inAir/Land/Water Vehicle, KSA12-16-124(2) and 12-16 124(4), and the same Law alsoworks at prohibiting carry intoa/ny: jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall- KSA 12-16 124(3). With the exception of KSA 12-16-124(3), being in the possesion of a Permit from Kansas, or one which Kansas reconizes, is an affirmative defense to any prosecution under KSA 12-16 124(2) or KSA 12-16 124(4).


    Under KSA 12-16 124(2) and 12-16 124(4), Topeka would be Preempted on Loaded Open Carry by those Persons who are holders of Valid Family and Personal Prtection Act Permits to Carry Firearms, issued by Kansas..., under KSA 75-7c03.

    However, Topeka may regulate Open Carry, without exception for those Persons listed above, on the following properties..., as they pertain to Open Carry: 1. Jail, 2. Juvenile Detention Center, 3. Prison, 4. Courthouse, 5. Courtroom, or 6. City Hall. The City of Topeka does not have to regulate this activity, but they may well do so under Kansas Law. Unfortunately, Permit Holders are not exempt from these regulations.

    Concealed Carry Laws throughout Kansas, although Uniform in nature under KSA 75-7c 17, but these Laws allow some Local Restrictions. As a General Rule of Thumb... most States, but not all States, regulate Concealed Carry far more strictly than Open Carry, espicially where Open Carry is treated as a Right, which it is, is far more acceptable than Concealed Carry, less one has a Permit to do so.

    KSA 75-7c 17 allows Concealed Carry to be curtailed under 75-7c 11(a)(1) through 75-7c 11(a)(2). KSA 75-7c 11(a)(1) has to do with Private Property Rights, less your Personal Motor Vehicle. 75-7c 11(a)(2) is the Kansas Statutory Off-Limits Areas, for Concealed Carry only, per KSA 75-7c 10(1) through 75-7c 10(22). All of these areas areOff-Limitson Concealed Carry, regardless if one has a Permit, however; they may not be Off-Limits to Open Carry though.

    So... Topeka can say, 'NO OPEN CARRY.'

    If youhave a Permit (Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act Permit KSA 75-7c),then, you can laugh at them.

    Topeka can get mad and say..., 'NO CARRY IN THE FOLLOWING PLACES: (SEE THE ABOVE UNDERLINED PLACES).

    Even if they do this though, everywhere else in Topeka is okay to Open Carry.

    If it is Public Property, and not one of those underlinded places, then it is okay to Open Carry there, and you can not Legally be arrested for it, or made to leave.

    If it is Private Property, KSA 75-7c 11(a)(2) and KSA 21-3721(1)(A) govern, and like most any other State, you MUST leave if you are told from the Rightful Owner or Occupant.

    Example: Topeka says, 'NO OPEN CARRY AT TOPEKA LIBRARY.'

    You can say, 'I have a Permit (KSA 75-7c)..., I am Legal [Open Carry].

    Remember though, under KSA 75-7c 11(19), Concealed Carry in the SAME Library is Off-Limits, though.

    I am not an Attorney, but my advice is although Open Carry is Legal in every area except those underlined above, Concealed Carry is MUCH MORE STRICT. Everyone who lives in Kansas, and hasThe Permit (75-7c)needs to read 75-7c (10).

    Open Carry is Off-Limits in Kansas at the following Areas, per Law:

    1. Schools, Schools means: K-12, under KSA 21-4204(5) and KSA 21-4204(6), and

    2. MAJOR STATE BUILDINGS, i.e. State Capitol, State Supreme Court, Governor Mansion, Landon State Building, Docken State Building, any other etc. MAJOR State Building, per KSA 21-4218.

    Either Violation of these Laws is a Kansas Class A Misdemeanor, and it does not matter if you have a Permit (75-7c) or not.

    Everywhere else, less the underlinded places (if enacted Locally), are Open Carry friendly, especially if one has a Permit.

    Generally, although Kansas Law is a little confusing, Kansas is a Open Carry State.

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    aadvark wrote:
    Under KSA 12-16 124(2) and 12-16 124(4), Topeka would be Preempted on Loaded Open Carry by those Persons who are holders of Valid Family and Personal Prtection Act Permits to Carry Firearms, issued by Kansas..., under KSA 75-7c03.

    However, Topeka may regulate Open Carry, without exception for those Persons listed above, on the following properties..., as they pertain to Open Carry: 1. Jail, 2. Juvenile Detention Center, 3. Prison, 4. Courthouse, 5. Courtroom, or 6. City Hall. The City of Topeka does not have to regulate this activity, but they may well do so under Kansas Law. Unfortunately, Permit Holders are not exempt from these regulations.
    OK, can you slow down here?

    I could have sworn that permit holder preemption in KS applies only to concealed carry and vehicle carry - meaning only in vehicles can permit holders OC even if locality has prohibited OC.

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    Mike you are correct

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    What a great study of KS law on the subject of open and concealed carry. Some of it I did not know, and I should. This illustrates how complicated state law is on the subject of firearms, concealed carry, and open carry. I live outside of Topeka, I have decided to support open carry in this way. Why not have persons who want to open carry go through the same process that concealed carry permit holders go through? Then if they are open carrying, they must attach their permit to their body in a certain place so law enforcement won't waste time trying to figure out why they are carrying a gun? Unless state law is changed, cities can still stop open carry. I know this will not set well with many open carry supporters. I read the comments under the newspaper article and poll whose url was given in a post here. I suggest you read these comments and see what people have to say about carrying a gun openly, they are very interesting. I hope you prevail in stopping the city council from passing this ordinance. I am glad that you have an organized opposition to it. As for the metal detectors, aside from law officers, no guns are allowed in city hall or the courthouse.

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    The climate of Open Carry is Kansas is similiar to that of Virginia prior to Virigina Preemption.

    For example..., prior to Preemption in Virginia, Cities could regulate Open Carry, i.e. such as in Local Parks/State Parks,but these regulations did not apply to Permit holders. The same is true in Kansas.

    Vehicle Carry in Kansas is Legal, but Cities can curtail this as well. Remember though, per Kansas Law, as citied within my last article, these regulations do not apply to Permit holders.

    Concealed Carry in Kansas is more stirct than Open Carry.

    Open Carry is generally acceptable, but Local Governments can make this difficult to do.

    However, Permit holders are exempt from Local Open Carry Bans.

    Kansas Law is complicated, but it is complicated because KSA 12-16 124 was around before KSA 75-7c.

    When KSA 75-7c came around the Law was significantly rewrote, thus causing the confusing network of Laws that they have now.

    Remember, Kansas and Nebraska were the last two States to pass Concealed Carry Laws, and now, only Illinois and Wisconsin lack Concealed Carry reform.

    However, this may soon change in both of those States as well!

    In the Midwest, generally, Open Carry is accepted, Concealed Carry is restricted.

    The oddities to this rule are: 1. Texas, 2. Arkansas, and 3. Oklahoma. These three States do not allow Open Carry, only Concealed Carry...,

    Here is Kansas Law, straight out of the Kansas Code. The underlined sections prove Persons with a Kansas Permit are exempt from Local Open Carry Bans and Local Vehicle Carry Bans..., as they are both underlined and bolded.


    Chapter 12.--CITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES



    Article 16.--MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS


    12-16,124. Firearms and ammunition; regulation by city or county, limitations. (a) No city or county shall adopt any ordinance, resolution or regulation, and no agent of any city or county shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, transfer, ownership, storage or transporting of firearms or ammunition, or any component or combination thereof. Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, any such ordinance, resolution or regulation adopted prior to the effective date of this 2007 act shall be null and void.

    (b) Nothing in this section shall:

    (1) Prohibit a law enforcement officer, as defined in K.S.A. 22-2202, and amendments thereto, from acting within the scope of such officer's duties;

    (2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one's person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public; [THIS SECTION EXEMPTS PERMIT HOLDERS FROM LOCAL OPEN CARRY BANS]
    (3) prohibit a city or county from regulating in any manner the carrying of any firearm in any jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall; or [NO EXCEPTIONS HERE!]

    (4) prohibit a city or county from adopting an ordinance, resolution or regulation requiring a firearm transported in any air, land or water vehicle to be unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm or any less restrictive provision governing the transporting of firearms, provided such ordinance, resolution or regulation shall not apply to persons licensed under the personal and family protection act. [THIS SECTION EXCUSES PERMIT HOLDERS FROM LOCAL OPEN CARRY BANS]

    (c) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2009 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, no person shall be prosecuted or convicted of a violation of any ordinance, resolution or regulation of a city or county which regulates the storage or transportation of a firearm if such person (1) is storing or transporting the firearm without violating any provision of the Kansas criminal code or (2) is otherwise transporting the firearm in a lawful manner.

    (d) No person shall be prosecuted under any ordinance, resolution or regulation for transporting a firearm in any air, land or water vehicle if the firearm is unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm. [THIS EXCEPITON APPLIES TO EVERYONE RATHER THEY HAVE A PERMIT OR NOT]

    History: L. 2005, ch. 141, § 10; L. 2007, ch. 166, § 1; May 3.










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    aadvark wrote:
    Permit holders are exempt from Local Open Carry Bans.
    Again, you spray us with information - give us concise argument citing to authority.

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    The two posts above are the best that I could do.

    It took me three hours to read Kansas Code pertaining to Firearms.

    Reading KSA 12-16 124 and KSA 75-7c is all I know to do.


    Please read KSA 12-16 124, as I have posted above.

    I have underlinded and bolded and included in Italics the pertinant information that I included in mysecond to previous post.



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    As the son of Kansans, and as a landowner near Burlington and Great Bend, I wish you folks the best in straightening out this mess. Agree, it is similar to VA before pre-emption. Good Luck!
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

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    The matter is already straightend out, Open Carry is LEGAL!

    That means ANY Firearm: Pistols, Revolvers, Handguns, Rifles, Shotguns, AK-47s, AR-15s, and either of the last two with Drum Magazines, Laser Sights,and Folding Stocks as well. (You get the idea..., but not that all of this is nessecary or pratical.)

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    Below is the link to Monday's edition of the Topeka Capital Journal 3/15/2010 on Open Carry

    http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-...ghts_or_safety

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    Open carry interview about Topeka KS, Jim Cates computer radio show 8:45am central time zone 3/15/2010

    http://cjonline.com/radio/jimcates



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    Good luck tonight! Can someone audio record the debate? Purty please?

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    I have kind of changed my mind, or at least clarified my thinking on open carry. While I whole heartedly support it and wish to see it available as much as possible, I do not think it's always the best idea to practice open carry at all times and at all places. I think common sense discretion is important so as to not unnecessarily frighten people and cause public relations problems with guns and gun owners at a time of unparalleled public acceptance of the second amendment.

    It appears that individuals testing the waters provoked this response from the Topeka PD and city council. If they repeal the open carry law you now have there, then we will have lost.

    Frankly, there are many times and places that do not require carrying guns. But in the event of disasters and riots and other disturbances if the right remains, you have the option available. If open carry is lost to Topeka, when trouble comes and your packing openly, they WILL confiscate your gun unless your on your property.

    Topeka is a case where open carry when not really needed provoked a negative response and probably your going to lose the option.

    In Mission Ks where I live, if I open carried everywhere I went, I guarantee a new city ordinance would be passed within weeks banning it. But if I did not provoke such a reaction and a wave of rabble crossed the creek over into Mission and began rioting, I could pack and not get in trouble.

    I just think open carry is not applicable in all places in all times. To think otherwise is just being unrealistic. We have made HUGE strides as gun owners over the past 45 years. Concealed carry is available at a scale unimaginable a decade ago.

    This could all change if open carry is carried to extremes. The reality is, this is Kansas, not Wyoming or Arizona. In the cow trail days in the old cow towns, they banned guns on the streets. We don't have the tradition of open carry as a publicly accepted practice.

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    KansasScout wrote:
    Frankly, there are many times and places that do not require carrying guns.
    Please tell us where this magic safety zone is.

    In church, in shopping malls, in parks, while jogging perhaps?

    Gun laws only penalize the good people, criminals ignore the law.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    KansasScout wrote:
    Frankly, there are many times and places that do not require carrying guns.
    Please do not allow yourself to think this way. While there are times and places where the probability of needing a gun are extremely low, the fact is there's little point in carrying a gun unless you're going to carry at all times (where legally allowed). This isn't even a question of open vs concealed; if you don't think you'll need it, you might as well just throw all your guns away.

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    First, I apologize to everyone on opencarry.org for not keeping you current on the submitted ordinance to ban open carry in Topeka. We are trying to keep a low profile until the outcome of McDonald vs. Chicago U.S. Supreme Court Case in June has been revealed.

    Well I am happy to report the ordinance has been tabled for lack of support. Overwhelmingly the citizens of Topeka do not support banning open carry outright. 3 to 1 Topeka does not want that right taken away.

    The ordinance didn’t even get a first reading because pro open carry and individual rights supporters, who all were from Topeka, filled every seat in the council chamber. There are 148 seats in the chamber I counted.

    This outcome only happened because a lot of people worked hard organizing the effort to fight the ordinance.

    After the outcome of the Supreme Court case in June I will have much more to say about our efforts and the future of open carry in Kansas. One thing I do want to say if you don’t fight for your rights you will have them taken away. You have to organize and be ready to counter any effort to ban your rights.

    A right is a right!

    God Bless America

    Marine0300

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