Must a business post "No Firearms" if thay have a policy?

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If an owner of a store tells you they do not allow firearms, do they legally have to post it outside the building?



Small Ma & Pa store tells me they "do not allow firearms ever."

There is nothing in writing... just the words of the owner...

Any help would be great,

Thanks!

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Welcome to OCDO!

It might help a bit if you post your location, at least the state and a general sense of where you are located.

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No, they do not need to post a sign. They own the property in whichthey do business and can change the rules of entry at their will. Even though they are generally open to the public and 'accomodate' the public, carrying a firearm is not a protected class (i.e. sex, race, et al).

You might be polite enough to leave them some sort of brochure from your state (many sates have some sort of tri fold brochure on this forum) and explain your position, but then leave and take your business elsewhere. Although, I, and others generally CC when this is the case. You would be breaking no law unless they asked you to leave and you then stayed on the property violating a tresspass type law.

LIVE FREE OR DIE!

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krysis86 wrote:

If an owner of a store tells you they do not allow firearms, do they legally have to post it outside the building?



Small Ma & Pa store tells me they "do not allow firearms ever."

There is nothing in writing... just the words of the owner...

Any help would be great,

Thanks!

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Welcome to OCDO Krysis86. Please add your location.

Go to My Account and then Profile. The laws pertaining to your question can differ from state to state. In Michigan, for example,store owners or their agents are not required by law to post signs. They can ask you to leave at any time.

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Is there an RCW pertaining to the issue? If there is a sign posted, you do not have to obey it, but if asked to leave you must?



Also, are there no legal repercussions for entering a store that has a no guns sign?

Thanks,

David

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Does the possession of a gun during trespass aggravate the charge?

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Thanks. You seem quite knowledgeable. Are you a Navy lawyer?

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It's just a hobby for a lot of us.

Some moreso than others. :uhoh:

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NavyLT wrote:

krysis86 wrote:

Is there an RCW pertaining to the issue? If there is a sign posted, you do not have to obey it, but if asked to leave you must?



Also, are there no legal repercussions for entering a store that has a no guns sign?

Thanks,

David

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There are no legal repercussions for entering a store that has a no guns sign. There is no method specified in the RCW's for a "no firearms" notification.

Once an employee of the company asks you to leave, they have removed their permission they have granted to you to remain on the property under their control, and if you remain on their property with their permission, you are guilty of:

RCW 9A.52.070
Criminal trespass in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.

(2) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a gross misdemeanor.

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I have seen it posted on some different threads on Wal Mart that only a manager not just an "employee" must ask you to leave. Anyone know if that's true?

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SavageOne wrote:

NavyLT wrote:

krysis86 wrote:

Is there an RCW pertaining to the issue? If there is a sign posted, you do not have to obey it, but if asked to leave you must?



Also, are there no legal repercussions for entering a store that has a no guns sign?

Thanks,

David

Click to expand...

There are no legal repercussions for entering a store that has a no guns sign. There is no method specified in the RCW's for a "no firearms" notification.

Once an employee of the company asks you to leave, they have removed their permission they have granted to you to remain on the property under their control, and if you remain on their property with their permission, you are guilty of:

RCW 9A.52.070
Criminal trespass in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.

(2) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a gross misdemeanor.

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I have seen it posted on some different threads on Wal Mart that only a manager not just an "employee" must ask you to leave. Anyone know if that's true?

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Not knowing your specific law for your specific jurisdiction, I would just offer how I'd handle the situation. If any employee asked me to leave, I'd get off the property as promptly as possible. Later, I'd call the manager and verify the policy. If he does not have a policy against OC, he should take the cue and train all of his employees.

It's folks who don't show a little discretion who end up (possibly unlawfully) at odds with the law.

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eye95 wrote:

Not knowing your specific law for your specific jurisdiction, I would just offer how I'd handle the situation. If any employee asked me to leave, I'd get off the property as promptly as possible. Later, I'd call the manager and verify the policy. If he does not have a policy against OC, he should take the cue and train all of his employees.

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Depending on the jurisdiction - always - only the proprietor or his agent may make trespass notice. That excludes clerks and non-management.

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NavyLT wrote:

Master Doug Huffman wrote:

eye95 wrote:

Not knowing your specific law for your specific jurisdiction, I would just offer how I'd handle the situation. If any employee asked me to leave, I'd get off the property as promptly as possible. Later, I'd call the manager and verify the policy. If he does not have a policy against OC, he should take the cue and train all of his employees.

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Depending on the jurisdiction - always - only the proprietor or his agent may make trespass notice. That excludes clerks and non-management.

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However, it is basically impossible to know how much authority to act as an agent management has given their employees. For example the standard employee may be acting as an agent of management, with authority, to sign for deliveries, to issue refunds and/or to refuse service.

Personally, I don't think when being asked to leave the premises by an employee of a company is the proper to time to argue whether or not that employee has authority to make that request, especially if LEO is present. If LEO is there, who is going to have MORE control over that property, the person getting paid by that company or Joe Schmoe off the street?

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Wisdom.

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SavageOne wrote:

I have seen it posted on some different threads on Wal Mart that only a manager
not just an "employee" must ask you to leave. Anyone know if that's true?

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Since the Evil Empire has a corporate policy of allowing self-defense (aka the carry of
firearms for personal protection), no employee of WM should ever ask you to leave unless
you're doing something wrong. If they do ask, I'd wait for a copy of the policy (nonexistant),
and the name / phone for the regional manager, then leave. Call the regional manager&
have a chat. Or ask the employee to have their manager call the regional office to check
on corporate policy, rather than losing a customer.

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MKEgal wrote:

Since the Evil Empire has a corporate policy of allowing self-defense (aka the carry of firearms for personal protection), no employee of WM should ever ask you to leave unless you're doing something wrong. If they do ask, I'd wait for a copy of the policy (nonexistant), and the name / phone for the regional manager, then leave. Call the regional manager& have a chat. Or ask the employee to have their manager call the regional office to check on corporate policy, rather than losing a customer.

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Except Wally World has said managers can override their non-existent policy.

Basically, they are trying to have it both way.

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AbNo wrote:

MKEgal wrote:

Since the Evil Empire has a corporate policy of allowing self-defense (aka the carry of firearms for personal protection), no employee of WM should ever ask you to leave unless you're doing something wrong. If they do ask, I'd wait for a copy of the policy (nonexistant), and the name / phone for the regional manager, then leave. Call the regional manager& have a chat. Or ask the employee to have their manager call the regional office to check on corporate policy, rather than losing a customer.

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Except Wally World has said managers can override their non-existent policy.

Basically, they are trying to have it both way.

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That is what I've heard. Corp. says "we follow local and state laws" but then say that managers have the right to ask anyone to leave for any reason.

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In the state of Kansas they MUST post a 6 inch sign the gun with the circle around it like the "no parking" signs

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KansasMustang wrote:

In the state of Kansas they MUST post a 6 inch sign the gun with the circle around it like the "no parking" signs

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I'm surprised that's not the rule/law every where. It sure would stop all the problems of trying to OC/CC legally in a business/store only to have a member of management approach you asking you to leave because supposedly it's not permitted by the company.

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I would assume this to be generally true everywhere. In Oregon, according to the Lane County Sheriffs office, A business must place a sign on the door to the establishment to restrict carry. BUT that does not restrict the owner from verbally informing you of his policy and asking you to leave. If you do not leave you will be trespassing.

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As I understand tresspassing laws, for you to be in violation and charged with tresspassing you must be notified. Once you have been notified then you must leave. If you have been notified in advance then you are tresspassing if you enter.

Notification can take several forms. One you can be notified by law. There are many places that are off limits by law. In SC hunting on private property without permission is tresspassing and you can be charged without any other warning.

You can be asked by the person with control of the property to leave. In this case you must leave or may be charged with tresspassing. Here there is no advanced notice such as the store that is off-limits but they do not have signs. Once notified and from then on (such as the next day) you will be tresspassing if you enter.

Advance notice can also be given by posting signs. The store that has a sign out front or property that has signs posting notice are off-limits and you can immediately be charged with tresspassing. In SC the law states the requirement of no weapons for businesses and for advanced notice to be given then the signs must meet the requirements. If the signs do not meet the requirements then they do not provide the advanced notice just as if they were not there.

In most states carrying into a place that is off-limits is considered at least some form of tresspassing and generally meets the same requirements but not is all cases so know your local law.

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Like I said "in Oregon"

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Nothing says "rob me" more clearly than a 6 inch sign the gun with the circle around it like the "no parking" signs.