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Thread: Arming the Department of Education with 12-gauge shotguns

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    Why does the Department of Education need 12-gauge shotguns?

    And you thought little Johnny was in trouble for having a tiny rubber gun in the pocket of his denims.



    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d10-Why-does-Department-of-Education-need-12gauge-shotguns


    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/yenznnt

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    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense. When all the cosmetic trappings are stripped away, a police officer is a police officer, no matter the origin of the law he is enforcing, or the power he is commissioned by.

    Police officers have to conform to the same rules as anyone else when employing deadly force (imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury), so why shouldn't they be able to choose the best tool for their circumstances, just as we argue we should be able to?

    Dave, I'm not sure of the point of your article. You dance around a few things but fail to come to a point that I could pick out. What exactly is your objection to police officers being armed with guns?

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    deanf wrote:
    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense. When all the cosmetic trappings are stripped away, a police officer is a police officer, no matter the origin of the law he is enforcing, or the power he is commissioned by.

    Police officers have to conform to the same rules as anyone else when employing deadly force (imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury), so why shouldn't they be able to choose the best tool for their circumstances, just as we argue we should be able to?

    Dave, I'm not sure of the point of your article. You dance around a few things but fail to come to a point that I could pick out. What exactly is your objection to police officers being armed with guns?
    I guess what I took from it, is why is the Department of Education buying shotguns? What is it that they are investigating? Why don't they use the FBI, local police, and prosecutors to investigate? And what again are they investigating?
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    Well it's all laid out in the article.

    All federal agencies get their own little police force these days. I don't agree with that, but that's the way it is and it's an argument for another thread.

    But if we are going to hire someone as a police officer, no matter what kind, shouldn't we agree to arm them in the manner that they see fit to defend their life? If not, then we are no better than those who seek to dictate how we arm ourselves.

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    deanf wrote:
    ...I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.
    Pleaseadd, "All law abiding citizens should be allowed to arm themselves for self defense with the same weapons that law enforcement uses."

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    . . . goes without saying, which is why I didn't say it . . .

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    Or to put it another way, law enforcement should be restricted to only those weapons which LAC are allowed to purchase without extra tax stamps, etc.

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    That's just scary on several levels.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deanf wrote:
    . . . goes without saying, which is why I didn't say it . . .
    Except for the fact that these shotguns have 14 inch barrels.
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Maybe they are going to use them for classroom instruction! Maybe we are finally going to be educated about firearms! I can dream can't I?
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    Can no one around here do better that a one or two sentence analysis?

    Come on people.

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    Can no one around here do better that a one or two sentence analysis? Come on people.
    Well said, Dean. And you kept it to one or two sentences too!!

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    deanf wrote:
    Can no one around here do better that a one or two sentence analysis?
    Succinctness beats out verbosity any day.

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    deanf wrote:
    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense. When all the cosmetic trappings are stripped away, a police officer is a police officer, no matter the origin of the law he is enforcing, or the power he is commissioned by.

    ...
    Dean, go run that past Oathkeepers and see what they think of it.

    MD

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    deanf wrote:
    Can no one around here do better that a one or two sentence analysis?
    I'll take a swing at it.

    The Dept of Education IG investigating fraud, waste, and abuse in education?

    That is a little like the headline today that the fedgov is going to ferret out stimulus fraud. Yeah, right. Like they are really going to ferret out the fact that the stimulus itself was the fraud--transfering taxpayer wealth to the banking and finance industry. Like they are really going to investigate the real perpetrators of the stimulus fraud--the Treasury Dept, Congress, and the formulators of the executive branch policiesthat favored loans to unqualified homebuyers, and the banking industry. Oh, and the real big boy: The Federal Reserve.

    Like the Dept of Ed. IG is really going to investigate where all the vast sums of fed money spent on education really goes while student achieve is in the sewer. That's the fraud that should be investigated--taking and spending taxpayer money under the false pretense that they can actually do something effective with it, like actually educate America's youth.

    So, there you go. More than two sentences. And the correct targets, rather than the one's the government would have us believe.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    How about this:

    The Deptartment of Education IG is inspecting the following crimes in Chicago (Does anyone see the irony in the location? I will give you a hint McDonald v Chicago)

    1) Possesion of a school book with out a permit.

    2)Purchasing more than one school book per month.

    3) Carrying a schoolbook in plain view to a coffee shop.

    4) Possesion of a non-registered schoolbook.

    5) Unlawful possesion of a fully automatic school book on a Sony E Reader.
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    gogodawgs wrote:
    How about this:

    The Deptartment of Education IG is inspecting the following crimes in Chicago (Does anyone see the irony in the location? I will give you a hint McDonald v Chicago)

    1) Possesion of a school book with out a permit.

    2)Purchasing more than one school book per month.

    3) Carrying a schoolbook in plain view to a coffee shop.

    4) Possesion of a non-registered schoolbook.

    5) Unlawful possesion of a fully automatic school book on a Sony E Reader.


    Don't forget: "Reading a book that isnot approved by the Dept of Education." You know, evolution vs intelligent design, sex ed use of banana's vs abstinence, physics vs superstition, that sort of thing.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    How about this:

    The Deptartment of Education IG is inspecting the following crimes in Chicago (Does anyone see the irony in the location? I will give you a hint McDonald v Chicago)

    1) Possesion of a school book with out a permit.

    2)Purchasing more than one school book per month.

    3) Carrying a schoolbook in plain view to a coffee shop.

    4) Possesion of a non-registered schoolbook.

    5) Unlawful possesion of a fully automatic school book on a Sony E Reader.


    Don't forget: "Reading a book that isnot approved by the Dept of Education." You know, evolution vs intelligent design, sex ed use of banana's vs abstinence, that sort of thing.
    Oh! You are right, how could I forget the ASSAULT books!
    Live Free or Die!

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    SNIP Oh! You are right, how could I forget the ASSAULT books!
    Oh, yes. And then there are the genuine military-only books for college and university programs on education itself. Really subversivetitles like:

    "How ToTeachSo Students ActuallyLearn Something."

    "Why The NEA's Excuses About Their Incompetence Never Actually Improves Student Achievement."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    deanf wrote:
    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.
    Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

    (PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )

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    heresolong wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.
    Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

    (PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )
    Exactly. Why do these guys need arms for self defense? Why should they have this type of shotgun? This is getting out of hand. Ooops, sounds like a Bradey Bunch argument. Nevermind.



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    erps wrote:
    heresolong wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.
    Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

    (PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )
    Exactly. Why do these guys need arms for self defense? Why should they have this type of shotgun? This is getting out of hand. Ooops, sounds like a Bradey Bunch argument. Nevermind.

    In my opinion, it's not a matter of whether or not they should be able to buy them. It's a matter of, where are my tax payer dollars going and are they being spent efficiently and effectively? In this case, I don't think they need shotguns to be investigating funds misappropriation. Speaking of funds misappropriation....maybe they should investigate themselves.

    On a side note, as long as a state/fed department actually needs certain firearms to function properly, I say let them have it; as long as we can have the same.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books.
    They're not auditors.

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    deanf wrote:
    Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books.
    They're not auditors.
    From the article:

    A spokesperson for the Department of Education says the guns are for use by officers with the agency’s Office of Inspector General.
    From the DoE website
    Mission Statement To promote the efficiency, effectiveness, and integrity of the Department's programs and operations, we conduct independent and objective audits, investigations, inspections, and other activities. Anyone knowing of fraud, waste, or abuse of Department of Education funds should contact the OIG Hotline to make a confidential report.
    Really?



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    Really.

    Is it your contention that every employee of the DOE OIG is a federal police officer?

    Because they probably aren't all cops. Some are probably auditors who search for accounting problems which may lead to a criminal investigation.

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