Arming the Department of Education with 12-gauge shotguns

erps · Mar 11, 2010

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heresolong wrote:

deanf wrote:

My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.

Click to expand...

Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

(PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )

Exactly. Why do these guys need arms for self defense? Why should they have this type of shotgun? This is getting out of hand. Ooops, sounds like a Bradey Bunch argument. Nevermind.

kenshin · Mar 11, 2010

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erps wrote:

heresolong wrote:

deanf wrote:

My thoughts on the unconstitutionality of most (if not all) federal law enforcement notwithstanding, I don't oppose any police officer being armed for self defense.

Click to expand...

Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

(PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )

Click to expand...

Exactly. Why do these guys need arms for self defense? Why should they have this type of shotgun? This is getting out of hand. Ooops, sounds like a Bradey Bunch argument. Nevermind.

In my opinion, it's not a matter of whether or not they should be able to buy them. It's a matter of, where are my tax payer dollars going and are they being spent efficiently and effectively? In this case, I don't think they need shotguns to be investigating funds misappropriation. Speaking of funds misappropriation....maybe they should investigate themselves.

On a side note, as long as a state/fed department actually needs certain firearms to function properly, I say let them have it; as long as we can have the same.

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books.

They're not auditors.

heresolong · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books.

Click to expand...

They're not auditors.

From the article:

A spokesperson for the Department of Education says the guns are for use by officers with the agency’s Office of Inspector General.

From the DoE website

Mission Statement To promote the efficiency, effectiveness, and integrity of the Department's programs and operations, we conduct independent and objective audits, investigations, inspections, and other activities. Anyone knowing of fraud, waste, or abuse of Department of Education funds should contact the OIG Hotline to make a confidential report.

Really?

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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Really.

Is it your contention that every employee of the DOE OIG is a federal police officer?

Because they probably aren't all cops. Some are probably auditors who search for accounting problems which may lead to a criminal investigation.

marshaul · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

Police officers have to conform to the same rules as anyone else when employing deadly force (imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury),

The validity of your entire position is predicated upon the truth of the premise here.

Unfortunately, as this premise is patently false, the rest of your position is rendered invalid by result.

I have three words for you, apologist/denialist: BLUE WALL SILENCE.

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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Unfortunately, as this premise is patently false

I waiting for you to prove me wrong.

I don't mind being proved wrong. It's happened before. You just have to do it.

BLUE WALL SILENCE

I don't like cops. I've said it here and publicly. I certainly have no objection to them being armed for self defense.

Trigger Dr · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

Really.

Is it your contention that every employee of the DOE OIG is a federal police officer?

Because they probably aren't all cops. Some are probably auditors who search for accounting problems which may lead to a criminal investigation.

In the federal Investigative job series, there are two classifications. 1810 General investigator with NO statuatory LE authority, and 1811Criminal Investigator/ special agent with full statuatory LE authority for the agency area of responsibility. Most agencies have investigative authority over a limited number of laws.

what ever you may think about them having shotguns, I don't care. I don't think they need them.

Dave Workman · Mar 11, 2010

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heresolong wrote:

Armed for self defense? They are investigating fraud and waste by schools. They are accountants. Why do they need weapons at all? Presumably the way you conduct an audit is by showing up and looking through the books. Are they expecting the principal, when confronted with his misdeeds, of pulling an Uzi out of his trench coat and shooting his way out of the school? By this logic Brian Sonntag, our auditor here in Washington State should be heavily armed prior to auditing any state departments. This is ridiculous.

(PS Thinking about becoming a DoE inspector. )

Heresolong has just moved to the front of the class (pun intended).

THIS is what the column was all about, Dean.

You should not need to send a goon squad of Dept. of ED cops to kick in doors in order to uncover waste and fraud in the schools, or in companies dealing with schools, or within the agency, itself.

Some think the mere existence of the Dept. of Ed is "waste and fraud" because the federal government should not be in the education business. That SHOULD be a function of state legislatures, and ONLY state legislatures...along with local school boards.

Norman · Mar 11, 2010

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I would love to see some of their case files. In particular any files they have pertaining to the need for entry shotguns. I'm sure it's stressful having to kick down the door to the teachers lounge, but are they really thinking that they need shotguns to take down the new substitute? Weapon-free zones, HA

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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Some think the mere existence of the Dept. of Ed is "waste and fraud" because the federal government should not be in the education business. That SHOULD be a function of state legislatures, and ONLY state legislatures...along with local school boards.

Yes. Of course. I stipulate.

But until that problem is fixed . . .

If we're going to hire people as police officers, shouldn't we allow them to pick the arms they use for self defense, just as we insist we be allowed to pick the arms we use for self defense?

gogodawgs · Mar 11, 2010

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Trigger Dr wrote:

deanf wrote:

Really.

Is it your contention that every employee of the DOE OIG is a federal police officer?

Because they probably aren't all cops. Some are probably auditors who search for accounting problems which may lead to a criminal investigation.

Click to expand...

In the federal Investigative job series, there are two classifications. 1810 General investigator with NO statuatory LE authority, and 1811Criminal Investigator/ special agent with full statuatory LE authority for the agency area of responsibility. Most agencies have investigative authority over a limited number of laws.

what ever you may think about them having shotguns, I don't care. I don't think they need them.

Trigger, thanks for weighing in on this as knowing your background it is a nice perspective to have.

I still have a question, what exactly is a LEO from the dept. of EDUCATION investigating? I guess my creative mind is blank (not the first time) on situations where they would need firearms?

The DoE Office of Inspector General Mission Statement:

To promote the efficiency, effectiveness, and integrity of the Department's programs and operations, we conduct independent and objective audits, investigations, inspections, and other activities. Anyone knowing of fraud, waste, or abuse of Department of Education funds should contact the OIG Hotline to make a confidential report.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oig/index.html

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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I still have a question, what exactly is a LEO from the dept. of EDUCATION investigating? I guess my creative mind is blank (not the first time) on situations where they would need firearms?

Oh how I hate to deal in the hypothetical and fantasy situations, but here it goes.

A public school finance executive has a 5 year history of misappropriating public funds for his own use. Almost a million dollars. He has finally come to the attention of law enforcement. They intend to bring him before a judge. They receive information that he is depressed, despondent, and suicidal. He's armed.

In that situation, it seems reasonable that those who intend to detain him be armed.

This is actually not such a hypothetical. The basic details are true for an agency I worked for. I of course spiced it up a bit for the purpose of making my point, but the basic details are true.

heresolong · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

I still have a question, what exactly is a LEO from the dept. of EDUCATION investigating? I guess my creative mind is blank (not the first time) on situations where they would need firearms?

Click to expand...

Oh how I hate to deal in the hypothetical and fantasy situations, but here it goes.

A public school finance executive has a 5 year history of misappropriating public funds for his own use. Almost a million dollars. He has finally come to the attention of law enforcement. They intend to bring him before a judge. They receive information that he is depressed, despondent, and suicidal. He's armed.

In that situation, it seems reasonable that those who intend to detain him be armed.

This is actually not such a hypothetical. The basic details are true for an agency I worked for. I of course spiced it up a bit for the purpose of making my point, but the basic details are true.

In Washington state the auditor would call the state police and they would arrest him. Why on earth wouldn't the Dept of Ed call the Justice Dept who would send out some FBI agents to arrest him?

Or I suppose you could arm your auditors with shorty shotguns to kick in his door instead.

gogodawgs · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

I still have a question, what exactly is a LEO from the dept. of EDUCATION investigating? I guess my creative mind is blank (not the first time) on situations where they would need firearms?

Click to expand...

Oh how I hate to deal in the hypothetical and fantasy situations, but here it goes.

A public school finance executive has a 5 year history of misappropriating public funds for his own use. Almost a million dollars. He has finally come to the attention of law enforcement. They intend to bring him before a judge. They receive information that he is depressed, despondent, and suicidal. He's armed.

In that situation, it seems reasonable that those who intend to detain him be armed.

This is actually not such a hypothetical. The basic details are true for an agency I worked for. I of course spiced it up a bit for the purpose of making my point, but the basic details are true.

I agree, I came up with a similar situation in my head too, then I simply asked why doesn't the DoE IG call local SWAT, FBI, etc...

I understand the LE capability of the IG and their ability to have sidearms, but what we have moved from is the investigative nature of the IG to the serving of an arrest warrant on a despondent individual. This is where I would see the move to call in the appropriate level of force from another agency.

Deputy IG (IG is Vacant)

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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In Washington state the auditor would call the state police and they would arrest him. Why on earth wouldn't the Dept of Ed call the Justice Dept who would send out some FBI agents to arrest him?

Actually in this case the funds involved were strictly local. The state auditor missed the malfeasance for years. A sharp eyed employee finally noticed something not quite right. It ended up being a federal mail fraud case. So the FBI was called. He did go to (is still in) federal prison.

But back to the topic: No one is answering the charge of hypocrisy in not allowing police officers to arm themselves as they see fit for self defense, but insisting that we be able to.

deanf · Mar 11, 2010

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Deputy IG (IG is Vacant)

Is she deputized? She doesn't have to be deputized to be the administrator of a law enforcement agency.

oneeyeross · Mar 11, 2010

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I think it's great that they want to use short barreled shotguns. Maybe it's time to revisit U.S. v. Miller, since that case was resolved in favor of US because the Supremes could find NO MILITARY USE for a short barreled shotgun....

Since we can now prove that there is a use for one, Miller should be overturned, and with it that part of the fire arms law of ...uh... 1934? (yep, I looked it up...)...

Now, if we can just get rid of the Dept. of Education in the first place....(I like dreaming....)

Norman · Mar 11, 2010

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But back to the topic: No one is answering the charge of hypocrisy in not allowing police officers to arm themselves as they see fit for self defense, but insisting that we be able to.

Is that the topic, or your particular view of the topic? They want to be armed for self defense? Fine they can do so with their own paycheck just like I have to. They have a lead and need a warrant served? They can call the local police and have it served just like a prosecuting attorney would in this state. Why does the DoE even need a police body? Investigators, sure I can understand that. Why do they need 14in remingtons? Normal patrol officers in this state don't get those. Entry/tac teams do. How often do they use them in the course of their day? For that matter, how often do they even need an armed unit for any function within the DoE?

Before your question can be answered, there are too many holes that need filled in for me. This whole scenario seems really silly.

gogodawgs · Mar 11, 2010

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deanf wrote:

In Washington state the auditor would call the state police and they would arrest him. Why on earth wouldn't the Dept of Ed call the Justice Dept who would send out some FBI agents to arrest him?

Click to expand...

Actually in this case the funds involved were strictly local. The state auditor missed the malfeasance for years. A sharp eyed employee finally noticed something not quite right. It ended up being a federal mail fraud case. So the FBI was called. He did go to (is still in) federal prison.

But back to the topic: No one is answering the charge of hypocrisy in not allowing police officers to arm themselves as they see fit for self defense, but insisting that we be able to.

Respectfully I dissagree that this is the topic, no one here challenges LEO to arm themselves for self defense.

Thetopic is why does the DoE have LEO, they are auditors as per their own mission statement. For arrests they can coordinate with either local LEO or the FBI.

The DoE Office of Inspector General Mission Statement:

To promote the efficiency, effectiveness, and integrity of the Department's programs and operations, we conduct independent and objective audits, investigations, inspections, and other activities. Anyone knowing of fraud, waste, or abuse of Department of Education funds should contact the OIG Hotline to make a confidential report.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oig/index.html

or is the the 'and other activities.' ....

Arming the Department of Education with 12-gauge shotguns

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