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Thread: Man with gun causes lockdown at high school

  1. #1
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    hello everyone im new to this forum. i have been open carrying for about a year now and i was just wondering what your take on this situation is.

    here is the link to the story in the news

    http://www.nevadaappeal.com/apps/pbc...ntprofile=1058


    i will just paste the story here too.

    A man returning from target practice with a rifle on his shoulder Tuesday prompted a 10-minute lockdown at Carson High School.

    Under Sheriff Steve Albertsen said a resident on Robinson Street reported he witnessed two men get out of a car, one of them carrying a rifle, and walk toward the high school, before losing sight of them.

    Officers searched the area and went to the high school, where a lockdown was ordered and deputies searched the property.

    Using the license plate, police located the owner at his home in the 1500 block of Robinson Street. He said he had been out target shooting and was walking to his apartment after parking his car a short distance away.

    “They were out target practicing and he carried the gun from the car to the apartment to put it away,” said Albertsen. “He had to park down the street because all the school kids park on Robinson now.”

    In January, the parks and sheriff's departments made parking at Mills Park off-limits to students. Since then, side streets near the high school have become crowded with student parking.

    Albertsen said the two men did nothing illegal and no citations were issued. But the duo was offered some advice.

    “We told them next time to pull in the driveway, unload your stuff, then park the car,” said Albertsen. “They agreed. They understood that people get excited, especially when someone's walking toward the school.”



    ok so my friend and i were the two men,
    we just got back from plinking at the range and were going home for some lunch. we couldn't find a parking space in front of our apartment complex because all the spaces have been taking. we weren't really thinking about the school we just were heading home after shooting. so after we parked up on our street ( robinson street) we got out of the car, my friend grabbed his range bag, slung his rifle on his shoulder, we walked to the apartment and went inside. 25 or so minutes later the sheriffs department knocked on the door. so i answered it (i still had my pistol on my belt in the holster) he asked me if we walked down the street with guns and i told him about it then he asked us to step outside. their were 3 leos in front. they told us to put our hands up and turn around. then the officer took my gun out of my holster and handed it to the other officer. i told him there was a round in the chamber. they unloaded the firearm then held on to it. they searched us took our IDs, then they asked us about where we were coming from and why we had guns on us so we told them. they told us about what happened at the high school and everything. we apologized for the misunderstanding and told them it wont happen again. so they gave me my gun back, our IDs and let us go back inside. i know it wasn't the smartest thing for my friend to have a rifle slung on his back but its not like we were doing anything illegal and we were just on the street for about 20 seconds.

    one of the same officers stopped me before when i was walking up the street to the store. he took my gun, ID and asked me questions then gave it back and let me go. i think i need to move far away from the high school. i guess Robinson street is too close.

    i read some of the threads on here about not having encounters with leo while OCing but i get a lot of harassment when i open carrying, dirty looks and people call the cops. is it because im 19 and people dont think i should own a handgun? whats the big deal? im not a trouble maker and im a very polite responsible person.



  2. #2
    Regular Member flagellum's Avatar
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    I'm certainly no expert on all things firearms, but I don't think that there was anything done wrong on your part. I would suggest a gun case in the future, however.

    What makes me upset is the title of the article states, "
    Man with gun causes lockdown at high school", implying it was something you guys did to get the school locked down. Paranoia got the school locked down, not two sportsmen.


    As a young gunner myself I feel your pain, I am 21 but trust me, you probably look older than I do. I think most people look at most OC'ers and just go "oh, off-duty LEO" but with us, not so much the case. It is good to know there are other young people out there who carry too, and if anything your post makes me feel a little more comfortable knowing I'm not the only kid out here who takes his rights seriously too.

    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
    -- Charles A. Beard
    XD(m) 9mm

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    thanks for the reply flagellum,
    yea i think the hole thing was totally blown out of proportion and the title of the story makes it sound outrageous like some guy walked up to the high school with an ak-47 and waved it in everyone's face.

    the gun case is a must for the rifle. i just wish that people around here didn't freak out so much seeing me with a pistol on my belt walking up the street to a friends house or to the store. its like come on this is Nevada why aren't more people open carrying?

    i have been stopped a few times and i have even been kicked out of stores and gas stations for open carrying. im not even allowed to go into walmart at the north end of town.

    i went to walmart one day OCing with my girlfriend to buy some food and some ammo. i was walking around in the grocery section minding my own business shopping when a manager and 3 employees walked up to me and said " excuse me sir are you leo?" and i said "no im not" the manager then said "what is that on your hip?" and i said "its my gun, why?" then he told me im not allowed to carry a gun and its illegal unless im leo. i then proceeded to tell him that i was simply OCing and that it was legal. he then said i needed to leave the store and never to come back, or go outside and put my gun in my car, then i can come back inside and pay for my groceries. he then said im not allowed to go back into the store with a gun or he would call the police on me so i handed him the stuff i was going to buy and told him to have a nice day and i left.



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    Next time close the door on the cops. Don't talk to the cops. They had no proof to hold you and search you and seize your property.

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    kwikrnu what am i supposed to do when the cops stop me on the street, tell me to put my hands up and take my gun?

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    Know your rights. The more you know the less they will bother you.. You'll have to be prepared to back those rights up though.

    GoDSpeeD

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    If you're at home simply do not open the door.

    If you're on the street there are many ways to handle it. Michigan open carry on youtube has some good videos and audio. Make sure you know the law.

    1. Buy and use an audio recorder.

    2. When confronted ask what your status is. Is it a consensual encounter or are you detained?

    3. If consensual walk away, if not you may have to ID yourself, or tell the cop you have a gun, etc.

    4. If detained you should probably do what the cops tells you to do and ask every once in awhile if you are free to go. I don't consent to searches and tell them so.

    5. If you feel the stop was in error request audio, video, 911 calls, dispatch recordings, reports, etc through a freedom of information act (FOIA) request. Write a letter to the police stating why you believe the cop violated your rights.

    6. If you feel especially violated file a 1983 federal civil rights lawsuit.

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    An audio recorder is very important. I keep one on me at all times.

    GoDSpeeD

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    kwikrnu thanks for the reply and good information.

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    I wonder if it would be considered as a concealed fire arm if it was in a case...mmmm

    I think it would be very important how far away from the school building you were....
    I do think if you carry a fire arm in the open...you probably should expect to get questioned by the police...The leo's are just answering a call...it is there job...
    They let you go no harm and no foul...
    I aint saying it is acceptable, but i am saying it will happen a lot....
    Learn the carry laws and educate the leo's as you have the opportunity...



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    doninvegas wrote:
    I wonder if it would be considered as a concealed fire arm if it was in a case...mmmm
    We (I and some others) had a somewhat lengthy, somewhat heated discussion about this fairly recently nearer the end of the thread here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=37956

    I think everybody needs to form their own opinion, but to ME the letter of the law reads that if it's not plainly a GUN, it's concealed. A gun case is not plainly a gun, therefore to ME, it's concealed. I personally will never transfer a firearm that is not plainly a gun unless it is on a CCW, or I am placing the gun into a case and no longer moving the case by hand after that point.

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    From my understanding that law goes for handguns(a firearm that can be concealed). Sense a rifle can't be concealed I don't think that law covers it.
    EDC=XDm40 16+1+16+16

    RED DRAGONS!!!!

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    Sabotage70 wrote:
    From my understanding that law goes for handguns(a firearm that can be concealed). Sense a rifle can't be concealed I don't think that law covers it.
    I immediately see every film reel of a guy pulling a shotgun or rifle out from within a trench coat. Or, out of whatever box/bag they happen to be carrying. A rifle can most certainly be concealed.

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    Below is the definition of a concealed weapon per this law:
    Quote:
    "Concealed weapon” means a weapon described in this section that is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.[/b]
    Anyone concealing a firearm without a concealed carry permit recognized by Nevada is guilty of a class C felony. Per NRS 202.3688, NRS 202.3689, and the Department of Public Safety list, Nevada recognizes permits from AK, AR, KA, LA, MI, MO, NE, OH, TN, and WV. However, Nevada residents must have Nevada permits. [/i]

    Also, according to Attorney General Opinion AG 93-14, a weapon is concealed only if it is hidden on a person (such as under a jacket) or if it is in a container that is being carried by that person. If a gun is in a briefcase and that briefcase is in one’s hand, then that person is carrying a concealed weapon. But if that briefcase is on the floor nearby then that person is not carrying a concealed weapon.

    Vehicles: [/b]
    In a vehicle, a weapon may be concealed anywhere within the vehicle, or it can be out in the open within the vehicle. The only place it cannot be when in a vehicle is concealed upon a person, such as under a jacket or in a pocket, unless that person has a concealed carry permit.

    According to NRS 503.165 one may not have in a vehicle any rifle or a shotgun with the chamber loaded. Rifles and shotguns may contain a fully loaded magazine however. Handguns are fine fully loaded including with a loaded chamber.

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    yes i understand it is their job and they are just responding to a call. i was just asking for your opinions on the situation and what i should do the next time i get stopped.

    im aware of my rights and the law but there is a lot of gray areas im unsure of and i would like to learn more about the laws and what i should do when im stopped by a leo.

    im also going to pick up a audio recorder tomorrow as kwikrnu suggested.

    here is a pick of where we were and where the high school is.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Sabotage70's Avatar
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    I knew the trench coat was going to get brought up. The guy at the courthouse used a trench coat. But as far as I know you can't add a rifle(barrel over 16") to your CCW. So in the eyes of the law they can't be concealed. Or we'll have to get blue cards for our rifles and shotguns.
    EDC=XDm40 16+1+16+16

    RED DRAGONS!!!!

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    Guide to Nevada Laws Concerning Carry of Firearms[/b]
    In Nevada, there is no law penalizing carrying a firearm openly so long as one is over the age of 18 and can legally own the firearm. NRS 244.364,
    NRS 268.418, and NRS 269.222 state that the legislature reserves to itself the right to regulate practically all aspects of firearms other than the discharge of firearms, and that no county, city or town respectively can infringe upon these rights. These laws allowed Clark County to maintain handgun registration but one must be in Clark County for 60 days before it is required. Although these laws reserve regulatory power to the state legislature, some local authorities insist that local regulations still apply and there has been some question about whether the current Nevada Attorney General agrees that these laws preempt local regulations. The current website for the Nevada Attorney General is silent on this issue, but past versions of the website warned of local ordinances.

    Official Recognition of Open Carry:[/b]
    Nevada does not have laws specifically allowing open carry. There are no laws making it illegal though, therefore it is legal. Using the internet archive at http://www.archive.org/index.php for http://ag.state.nv.us/ (Nevada Attorney General Website), there is recognition by the Attorney General of Nevada of the legality of open carry in the FAQ section of old versions of the website. The current website does not contain this information

    C[/b]oncealed Weapons:[/b]
    NRS 202.350 is the law concerning concealed weapons.

    Below is the definition of a concealed weapon per this law:
    Quote:
    "Concealed weapon” means a weapon described in this section that is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.[/b]
    Anyone concealing a firearm without a concealed carry permit recognized by Nevada is guilty of a class C felony. Per NRS 202.3688, NRS 202.3689, and the Department of Public Safety list, Nevada recognizes permits from AK, AR, KA, LA, MI, MO, NE, OH, TN, and WV. However, Nevada residents must have Nevada permits. [/i]

    Also, according to Attorney General Opinion AG 93-14, a weapon is concealed only if it is hidden on a person (such as under a jacket) or if it is in a container that is being carried by that person. If a gun is in a briefcase and that briefcase is in one’s hand, then that person is carrying a concealed weapon. But if that briefcase is on the floor nearby then that person is not carrying a concealed weapon.

    Vehicles: [/b]
    In a vehicle, a weapon may be concealed anywhere within the vehicle, or it can be out in the open within the vehicle. The only place it cannot be when in a vehicle is concealed upon a person, such as under a jacket or in a pocket, unless that person has a concealed carry permit.

    According to NRS 503.165 one may not have in a vehicle any rifle or a shotgun with the chamber loaded. Rifles and shotguns may contain a fully loaded magazine however. Handguns are fine fully loaded including with a loaded chamber.

    Alcohol:[/b]
    Per NRS 202.527 one may not possess a firearm with a blood alcohol level above .10.
    Location Restrictions: [/b]
    Per NRS 202.265 one may not have a firearm anywhere on the property of a University, School, or Child Care facility. Also, per NRS 393.410 loitering near school grounds with a dangerous weapon carries a greater penalty than loitering near school grounds without a weapon.
    Per NRS 218.542 one may not possess a firearm in the legislative building nor in any other place where the legislature is conducting its business.

    Per NRS 202.3673 people with concealed carry permits may not carry a concealed[/i] firearm into government buildings on public airport property or any government buildings with metal detectors or signs saying no guns are permitted. This technically makes no mention of open carry. An application form described in
    NAC 202.020 says that all government buildings are off limits to concealed[/i] carry but there does not appear to be any law or regulation to support this.
    A sign on a private building saying no firearms are allowed does not make firearms illegal there. If one is asked to leave however and does not then that person is trespassing per NRS 207.200.

    Per NAC 407.105 one needs to have a concealed carry permit to possess a firearm at a state park unless if it is unloaded and inside a vehicle.

    Per NAC 408.615 in a roadside park or rest area one may not "exhibit or use a firearm or other weapon." There is no definition given of exhibit, but per
    NRS 408.433, the penalty for the first violation of this regulation is a fine of not more than $100.
    [/b][/b]
    Federal Law:[/b]
    One may not carry a weapon on postal property per 39 CFR 232.1. Per Title 18 U.S.C. Section 930 one may not carry a weapon in buildings owned by the federal government, although one exception allows for “the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.” Per 49 CFR 1540.111 firearms are prohibited in the sterile areas of an airport. On February 22, 2010 it will be legal to carry guns in National Parks and Wildlife Refuges. Until then firearms must be unloaded and must be either be dismantled or cased per 36 CFR 2.4 and 50 CFR 27.42.
    Per Title 18 U.S.C. Section 926 transportation of unloaded firearms and ammunition in a vehicle is legal despite any local laws to the contrary as long as one is traveling between two areas where the firearm is legal and if neither the firearm nor the ammunition is readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle has no compartment other than the driver’s compartment the firearms and ammunition must be in a locked case other than the glove box or console. This federal law limits state and local government regulations if the firearm is transported in compliance with it, but it does not limit a person to transporting in this manner where there are no state or local regulations that would make the transportation of your firearm illegal without it.
    Title 18 U.S.C. Section 922, (Q) is a federal law concerning school zones. Below is the main excerpt of the law.
    Quote:
    It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. [/b]
    There are a few exceptions to the law which, such as the individual possessing the firearm being on private property, the individual possessing a firearm having been licensed to do so by the state where the school zone is located, or the firearm being unloaded and in a locked case. Title 18 U.S.C. Section 921 Definitions determines that a school zone is within 1000 feet of a school.

    The history of this law is important to know. In 1990, Congress passed the Gun Free School Zones Act. In 1996, in United States vs. Lopez, the act was considered an unconstitutional extension of the commerce clause and thus was voided. Immediately after that, Congress passed a nearly identical law, but modified it declaring that all[/b] firearms have moved in interstate commerce and declaring that anyone who possesses a firearm that has moved in interstate commerce in a school zone is breaking the law.
    Likely this federal law is still unconstitutional. As the court has already decided the original was unconstitutional, it is unlikely that Congress made it constitutional by declaring its constitutionality and declaring that it pertains to interstate commerce, as the new law is modified to do. The existence of any actual convictions under the reiteration of the law is unknown to this author, but the penalty for conviction is a severe five year prison sentence and a fine. Probably, if one is unaware of being in a school zone then legal problems will not result. Enforcement of this law is uncertain and if enforced it may be overturned based on its unconstitutionality again.

    Go to www.opencarry.org/ for more information. There is a section of the forum dedicated to Nevada. The website is not associated with this pamphlet. This document should not[/i] be construed as legal advice. Always check the laws. This pamphlet attempts[/b] to accurately reflect the laws as of August 9, 2009. Other laws may also exist.





    We need to get these made into pamphlets and pass them out...


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    Sabotage70 wrote:
    I knew the trench coat was going to get brought up. The guy at the courthouse used a trench coat. But as far as I know you can't add a rifle(barrel over 16") to your CCW. So in the eyes of the law they can't be concealed. Or we'll have to get blue cards for our rifles and shotguns.
    Well... No. NRS 244.364 specifically defines for it's section the firearms required to be registered. They claim a "firearm capable of being concealed" and then further define in paragraph 4 "as used in this section:", ""Firearm capable of being concealed" includes all firearms having a barrel less than 12 inches in length."

    As for the CCW limitations, I don't know I haven't researched that much at all. I stand by my interpretation of the letter of the law, knowing full well it was not the intention of the law. Like I said before, everybody must make their own decision in the end.

    In any event, I feel as though the thread has somewhat been hijacked, and apologize. My initial point I guess was that I would have carried the weapon the same as the OP. Though had I considered that I lived as close to a school as the OP, which I, like he, probably wouldn't have even thought about it, I would probably "park" closer and move the vehicle after.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Sabotage70's Avatar
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    I was wrong on the barrel length. I was going by a "normal" rifle/shotgun.
    EDC=XDm40 16+1+16+16

    RED DRAGONS!!!!

  20. #20
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    But as far as the conceal handgun in the case goes. I'm just glad I had my S&W 22a-1 added to my ccw. I know there is a pretty good chance that I will never carry it on my person. I now know that I can't be charged for concealing it when carrying it in it's case.
    EDC=XDm40 16+1+16+16

    RED DRAGONS!!!!

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    Mr.Stressman wrote:
    im aware of my rights and the law but there is a lot of gray areas im unsure of and i would like to learn more about the laws and what i should do when im stopped by a leo.
    Well it seems you may have been in violation of the Gun Free School Zone Act. You were most definitely within 1000ft of the school. The interesting caveat may be that there is an exception that allows the carry:
    Section 922 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code (see bold area):
    (1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit).
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm.
    Now, since Nevada is by default an open carry state and therefore does not issue weapon or firearm permits doe everyone by default "have" one thus allowing them to carry within 1000 ft? Or, does this mean that the only way to carry withing 1000 ft in NV is with a CCW?

    I'd be interested in hearing Tims thoughts on this one...

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    If you're at home simply do not open the door.

    +1. And don't bother arguing with them through the door. Just tell them to go away.

    If you're on the street there are many ways to handle it. Michigan open carry on youtube has some good videos and audio. Make sure you know the law.

    1. Buy and use an audio recorder.

    This is fine in Nevada. In case you were wondering, there is no law in this state that prevents you from recording audio in public or private. Also, in cases where it is unlawful to record, this state only requires one person being recorded to know the conversation is being recorded. So as long as you know the recording is on, the one-person test has been met.

    2. When confronted ask what your status is. Is it a consensual encounter or are you detained?

    3. If consensual walk away, if not you may have to ID yourself, or tell the cop you have a gun, etc.

    Agreed. If consensual, walk away. If you're being detained, NRS 171.123 requires you to identify yourself. NV Supreme Court Case Law requires only that you provide your name. You do not need to show ID, give your social security number, date of birth, address, or anything else. Just tell them your name, that's it.

    There is no law requiring you to inform an officer you are armed, even if you are carrying a concealed weapon with a permit. You should not lie, but you are not required to answer, even if asked.

    And since you're being detained, YOU ARE A SUSPECT IN A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION. Let me rephrase. THE OFFICER IS LOOKING FOR YOU TO SAY SOMETHING INCRIMINATING SO HE CAN ARREST YOU. You were exercising your right to bear arms, why not go ahead and exercise your right to remain silent as well?


    4. If detained you should probably do what the cops tells you to do and ask every once in awhile if you are free to go. I don't consent to searches and tell them so.

    By all means, if a cop stops you at gun point, or orders you to put your hands up, DO IT! Live to argue another day. It's one thing to be dead wrong, it's another thing to be DEAD RIGHT. Just do as he says to keep yourself safe and no matter what, file a complaint later.

    5. If you feel the stop was in error request audio, video, 911 calls, dispatch recordings, reports, etc through a freedom of information act (FOIA) request. Write a letter to the police stating why you believe the cop violated your rights.

    6. If you feel especially violated file a 1983 federal civil rights lawsuit.

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    gmijackso wrote:
    Now, since Nevada is by default an open carry state and therefore does not issue weapon or firearm permits doe everyone by default "have" one thus allowing them to carry within 1000 ft? Or, does this mean that the only way to carry withing 1000 ft in NV is with a CCW?

    I'd be interested in hearing Tims thoughts on this one...
    My interpretation on the exception granted in the letter of the law requires one to have an actual physical license. So a CCW would protect you, even OC, even with a rifle.

    However, the first version of this law has already been ruled unconstitutional by the federal courts, and it is unlikely the reworded law is constitutional. With the exception of California (which has a very similarly worded law), I am unaware of any single arrest for a violation of this law.

    And it would be very unpopular to actually arrest someone here in Clark County under that law, seeing as how the only way to get to the new Clark County Shooting Park is by driving right in front of Shadow Ridge High School:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=shadow+ridge+high+school+vegas&fb=1&am p;gl=us&hq=shadow+ridge+high+school&hnear= vegas&cid=0,0,8950218314526361067&ei=MRWZS 9WcCpHctgOSh7nCAQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&amp ;ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQnwIwAA

    And if you got to Decatur from the highway in the east, Goynes Elementary School is only 850 ft off the highway:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=goynes+elementary+school+vegas&fb=1&am p;gl=us&hq=goynes+elementary+school&hnear= vegas&cid=0,0,186990139705822923&ei=kBWZS7 DRGIe0sgOlupjCAQ&sa=X&oi=local_result& ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQnwIwAA

    And from the west, Neal Elementary School is even closer to the highway:

    http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=neal+elementary+school+vegas&fb=1& gl=us&hq=neal+elementary+school&hnear=vega s&cid=0,0,5953586874294121108&ei=3BWZS7DBA o-esgPjv-HBAQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&amp ;resnum=1&ved=0CAcQnwIwAA

    So as you can see, pretty much anyone who makes use of our new shooting park here in town (assuming they were carrying a loaded gun and didn't have a CCW) would violate that law if it were legal and/or enforceable.

    As always, IANAL and YMMV. But I go about my daily life as if that law doesn't exist.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Henderson, ,
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    232

    Post imported post

    After a little research....it looks as if a rifle in an approved, locked rifle case is acceptable to transport, as long as it is empty. but i also cant find anything other than that defunct federal law ...
    I think the politicians write these laws just to confuse the public....

    Just my opinion..IMNAL

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