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Thread: not local, but interesting LEO contact with OCer

  1. #1
    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    Found this somewhat funny. I think the OCer got exactly what he asked for in this case.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...cer-today.html

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    The OCer did what was in his best legal interests: he ended the conversation and left before the officer got reasonable suspicion to detain him. Of course, he could have been nicer. Something like, "It's nothing personal, but I've been told by my lawyer not to speak to police officers."

    His mistake was walking back to his car. It's MUCH easier for an officer to get probable cause when you're in your car. If he follows you for long enough, he WILL catch you making a mistake. Also, when in your car, you must present your license. If he remained on foot, he wouldn't have to present it.

    I sympathize with the officer, but he has to realize that our system of laws is so complicated that most citizens are positively afraid of officers. They're afraid they're going to get jailed for a law they didn't even know existed. He has to expect that people will do what's in their best legal interests and not take it personally.

    Of course, this guy didn't do what was in his best interests. He screwed up when he went back to his car while the officer was watching. Screwing up his car's license plates was also a bad move.

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    A teachable moment.

    Maybe the LEO will learn that his brothers in blue have a crappy reputation that is well earned.

    Maybe the OCer will learn that not all LEO are A$%holes.

    I have hope.
    Tack
    It does not take courage to change America, it takes courage to keep it.
    Ignorance of the law is an excuse for neither citizens..nor for law enforcement.
    NRA life member

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    They could both use some improvement. The LEO not ticketing him and explaining the situation at hand in the stop would have been a good start to get the OC'er more receptive to LEO contact. However, he did overreact and I'm sorry, but pulling out the tape recorder IMMEDIATELY is not the way to go about things. I'm going to run through the whole thread on it here in a bit (51 PAGES!!!), but I think I'll stand pretty firm that it could have been handled in a more appropriate and respectful manner from both sides.


    Using what "Mom" taught me though, the OC'er did get what he deserved...

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    Good post, Anubis, I enjoyed that.

    Doc

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    marantz wrote:
    His mistake was walking back to his car.
    I think his first mistake was not keeping his vehicle 100% functional. His second mistake was assuming the cop wanted to hassle him for OC. No need to get on the legal high horse until he knew for sure that was the case. He could have simply said "hello" and listened to what the LEO had to say; that would not be "talking to the police" in a significant way, and would have allowed him to learn what the LEO actually wanted.

    In an OC situation like that, I turn on my recorder when I exit my car before entering the store, and it's concealed. LEO conversation is not the only thing that might be useful to record.


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    Anubis wrote:
    marantz wrote:
    His mistake was walking back to his car.

    In an OC situation like that, I turn on my recorder when I exit my car before entering the store, and it's concealed.* LEO conversation is not the only thing that might be useful to record.

    +1

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    I agree, be polite.

    He would have saved himself some grief.



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    Anubis wrote:
    His second mistake was assuming the cop wanted to hassle him for OC.* No need to get on the legal high horse until he knew for sure that was the case.* He could have simply said "hello" and listened to what the LEO had to say; that would not be "talking to the police" in a significant way, and would have allowed him to learn what the LEO actually wanted.
    I agree that he shouldn't have been in violation of the law in the first place, but I respectfully disagree that there's something wrong with excusing yourself before the conversation begins. Starting off innocuously, then probing deeper is a well known interrogation technique. Here's how a conversation can quickly go sour:
    Officer: Hey that's a nice gun you got there!
    OCer: Thanks officer!
    [A few friendly words about the gun]
    Officer: Man, so I had a heck of a time getting down here. There was some major congestion at Broadway and Aurora.
    OCer: Yeah, that was bad. Was there an accident or something? I just drove through there about fifteen minutes ago.
    Officer: Oh really? About 15 minutes ago we had a report of a driver brandishing a gun.
    OCer: Uhhhh
    The officer now has probable cause to arrest you just because you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (and he tricked you into admitting it!).

    And no, this isn't completely contrived. Officers do this sort of thing all the time. For example, this happened to one of my sister's male friends: One night he was was having a house party. The cops showed up and he answered the door. The cops asked him to come out and talk to them on the sidewalk in front of his porch. He did. He was then cited for public drunkenness. They tricked him into breaking the law.

    So, yeah, it's nothing personal. I'm sure most cops are honest, but I just can't risk it. I stand by my original advice: end the conversation as quickly as possible. Of course try to be as polite as possible: "Sorry officer. It's nothing personal, but my lawyer says I should not speak to LEOs."

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    Diocoles wrote:
    I agree, be polite.

    He would have saved himself some grief.

    Or you could also say "Be polite, it will never hurt your situation."



    But then again I might say "Try being polite, new experiences are good for you."

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    Good example of why I don't agree with the never-ever-ever-talk-to-cops-I-mean-not-even-once folks out there. While I agree that don't talk to the police is a good general rule, it needs to be a judgment call each time. Sometimes (often, IMHO) a few polite words go a lot farther than immediately busting out the "Am I being detained, I want my lawyer" statements.

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    Pat-inCO wrote:
    But then again I might say "Try being polite, new experiences are good for you."
    Indeed! Out of Stater here.. (Ky) just thought I'd say that I'm normally a quiet keep to myself kind of person in public. I've been told in the past by co-workers who were friends that other employees who don't know me but see me around the office have always commented that I LOOK unfriendly.. not dangerous per se.. just like I'm in a bad mood all the time. I guess it's just my relaxed facial expression..

    ANYWAY....

    I've found that in the last few day since I've started OCing.. that I'm more mindful of those around me (situational awareness) but as an added bonus I also make the conscious effort to make eye contact and smile and nod or say hello to perfect strangers.. It's led to a few random friendly conversations in bookstores and coffeeshops.. (where I tend to be found alot when not working)

    No LEO experiences yet.. I'm on day 3 of OCing.. There is a LEO who frequents my regular Coffeehouse but he's used to seeing me and probably just hasn't noticed. (We don't know each other other than familiar faces in a crowd.. )

    -Adam

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