Interview with antiguners

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CV67PAT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

It's sadly somewhat true.

After the picnic ended and most all (but about 3 people) had left, a member who had attended had a negligent discharge in the parking lot.

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What evidence do you have that allowed you to come to the conclusion that the incident was a negligent discharge as opposed to possibly having been an accidental discharge?

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As autosurgeon said: There's no such thing as an accidental discharge in my book. Anytime you didn't intend for the gun to go off and it does, it's due to negligence.

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I asked you what evidence you have that it was a negligent discharge. You, not autosurgeon, are the one that made the quoted statement as if it were a matter of fact.

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Did the gun fire a round? Yes.
Was the shot intended? No.

Therefore, a negligent discharge occurred.

Negligence is defined as: Failure to take proper care in doing something.

He succeeded in caring for muzzle control, but he did not properly mind his trigger control.

Even if the shot was an accident (many negligent discharges are), it was still negligent.

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I was shot by my CZ52 when it fell on the ground, and I believe that was negligence, not an accident. Same as in this case, because he chambered a modern handgun, then pulled the trigger and it fired.

Trying to call that an accident, to me, holds no merit. It serves as a great lesson for all of us, especially those newer to guns. Obey the 4 rules, use good equipment, and don't carry chambered or do anything else with guns unless you are beyond confident in your ability to do it safely.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

It's sadly somewhat true.

After the picnic ended and most all (but about 3 people) had left, a member who had attended had a negligent discharge in the parking lot.

Click to expand...

What evidence do you have that allowed you to come to the conclusion that the incident was a negligent discharge as opposed to possibly having been an accidental discharge?

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As autosurgeon said: There's no such thing as an accidental discharge in my book. Anytime you didn't intend for the gun to go off and it does, it's due to negligence.

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I asked you what evidence you have that it was a negligent discharge. You, not autosurgeon, are the one that made the quoted statement as if it were a matter of fact.

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Did the gun fire a round? Yes.
Was the shot intended? No.

Therefore, a negligent discharge occurred.

Negligence is defined as: Failure to take proper care in doing something.

He succeeded in caring for muzzle control, but he did not properly mind his trigger control.

Even if the shot was an accident (many negligent discharges are), it was still negligent.

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So by your illogical conclusion I can ascertain that all of the collisions caused by sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles are the result of negligent drivers and they should be charged criminally for such?

You obviously have a very limited amount of firearm experience and/or involvement.

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Michigander wrote:

I was shot by my CZ52 when it fell on the ground, and I believe that was negligence, not an accident. Same as in this case, because he chambered a modern handgun, then pulled the trigger and it fired.

Trying to call that an accident, to me, holds no merit. It serves as a great lesson for all of us, especially those newer to guns. Obey the 4 rules, use good equipment, and don't carry chambered or do anything else with guns unless you are beyond confident in your ability to do it safely.

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I have always given you the benefit of doubt in this incident. You have a severely defective firearm. It failed the simple drop test that all firearms are required.

As I have stated to you before, the only negligence in your incident was owning a gun from some former Soviet Bloc country.

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CV67PAT wrote:

So by your illogical conclusion I can ascertain that all of the collisions caused by sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles are the result of negligent drivers and they should be charged criminally for such?

You obviously have a very limited amount of firearm experience and/or involvement.

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How is a car in any way similar to the way a gun operates? A full-auto - MAYBE, but those are a VERY small minority in the guns that a civilian typically sees in their lifetimes.

If a mechanical failure causes a hammer to drop over a live round - that could be an accidental discharge - but it could also be that the owner of the firearm was negligent in maintaining the gun.

If there's a manufacturer's defect which causes discharge - that's accidental. But that's also (anecdotally) a VERY minor percentage of discharges.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

So by your illogical conclusion I can ascertain that all of the collisions caused by sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles are the result of negligent drivers and they should be charged criminally for such?

You obviously have a very limited amount of firearm experience and/or involvement.

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How is a car in any way similar to the way a gun operates? A full-auto - MAYBE, but those are a VERY small minority in the guns that a civilian typically sees in their lifetimes.

If a mechanical failure causes a hammer to drop over a live round - that could be an accidental discharge - but it could also be that the owner of the firearm was negligent in maintaining the gun.

If there's a manufacturer's defect which causes discharge - that's accidental. But that's also (anecdotally) a VERY minor percentage of discharges.

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But you most certainly do have an extensive knowledge of firearm laws!

I am just attempting to give the benefit of doubt where I did not witness the incident.

I do stand by my contention that michigander was NOT negligent. Irrespective of what he says. Even if he threw that POS on the ground, it should not have discharged.

The incident that is the topic here is still being adjudicated.

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simply assigning ANY unintended discharge as neglegent, and due to operator error is short sighted.
i read the thread about this OC meet and the gun going off, no one really was able to report excactly how it happened!
i also read a thread about a gun that was placed on the counter at the range and it spontainiously fired three shots ( by its self ) wounding a by stander!
cant say it was neglegent, nobody pulled the trigger, was working fine up till then,
cant say it was an accident, it wasnt dropped or miss handled, it was pointed in a safe direction.
a true fact is that a gun wont fire in any mode, if the chamber is empty!
unless you think you may need to be shooting, you shouldnt chamber,
if you dont have a CPL, and will need to unload for transport, you shouldnt chamber,
if you are only carrying to go to an OC picnic, you shouldnt chamber!

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One point that many people seem to not understand about firearms is they are mechanical devices made by man... they can and will fail at times through no fault of the owner. Admittedly this is a very rare happening however it does happen.

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I have known Michigander for a long time, and as defective as that firearm was, it should not have left its holster if he did not want it to.



Anyway, as far as this debate goes, I beleve the same thing happened in the original post for this incident.

Some believe there is a difference between AD and ND, and some believe ADs do not exist. This is like trying to force someone to believe in a different God or a God at all... you are not likely to succeed, since this is largely based on opinion, and interpretation of facts, rather than facts themselves.

I'm not discouraging the conversation though... i'm one who doesn't really go with the whole accident thing. Even if your gun is malfunctioning, you should notice the signs long before a discharge happens.

For example... that CZ used to do all kinds of weird things while shooting... such as the slide getting stuck a quarter inch out of battery, and locked in place to a point where you actually had to carefully remove the slide, while the gun was chambered, in order to get the live round out or get the weapon to cycle.

This was 6 months at least before Michigander's incident. That alone would have been reason enough for me not to carry that thing.

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/31914-1.html

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The short and simple part, accidents (negligent or otherwise) happen. With the stupid laws on OC in this state, it was bound to happen sooner or later. We can be thankful that at least no one got hurt.

At least the shooter didn't shoot himself in the leg, like that fed did in Florida a few years back.

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1245A Defender wrote:

unless you think you may need to be shooting, you shouldnt chamber,
if you dont have a CPL, and will need to unload for transport, you shouldnt chamber,
if you are only carrying to go to an OC picnic, you shouldnt chamber!

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I have to take issue with a couple of things.

If I diddnt think there was a possibility of a defensive shooting, I wouldnt be carrying. ( its not for show)

I dont have a CPL, and load/unload several times a day, I always chamber. I am not willing to risk my life by having a gun that is not ready to fire. This is why I will not carry a defensive weapon trhat has an electronic or thumb safety, people do forget things under stress. I may not have time to chamber a round, and I may not want to make the sound of chamberibng a round.

What about wheel guns?

Things could happen at a picnic too.


I follow the safety rules, and If I diddnt trust my gun not to just go off, I would choose a different gun. I wouldnt be too worried about an accidental discharge from my XD even if I threw it out of the window of a moving car.

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stainless1911 wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

unless you think you may need to be shooting, you shouldnt chamber,
if you dont have a CPL, and will need to unload for transport, you shouldnt chamber,
if you are only carrying to go to an OC picnic, you shouldnt chamber!

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I have to take issue with a couple of things.

If I diddnt think there was a possibility of a defensive shooting, I wouldnt be carrying. ( its not for show)

I dont have a CPL, and load/unload several times a day, I always chamber. I am not willing to risk my life by having a gun that is not ready to fire. This is why I will not carry a defensive weapon trhat has an electronic or thumb safety, people do forget things under stress. I may not have time to chamber a round, and I may not want to make the sound of chamberibng a round.

What about wheel guns?

Things could happen at a picnic too.


I follow the safety rules, and If I diddnt trust my gun not to just go off, I would choose a different gun. I wouldnt be too worried about an accidental discharge from my XD even if I threw it out of the window of a moving car.

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I have to agree with that...what...may i ask, is the point of carrying a weapon that is unable to fire until you chamber a round? I seriously doubt any criminal will have the same dilemma! If i were to (which i wont be able to till may...but still...) carry a loaded firearm for defensive purposes then i want to be able to defend myself as fast as possible!...chambering a round takes time, and in certain situations seconds can save lives...now i do realize that i am only 17, however ive spent the last month reading alot of informative posts on here and reading up on my MI laws...if its legal to carry with a chambered round, then i will.....JMO....feel free to tear apart my logic as you see fit, im always up for learning something

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American Boy With a Gun wrote:

stainless1911 wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

unless you think you may need to be shooting, you shouldnt chamber,
if you dont have a CPL, and will need to unload for transport, you shouldnt chamber,
if you are only carrying to go to an OC picnic, you shouldnt chamber!

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I have to take issue with a couple of things.

If I diddnt think there was a possibility of a defensive shooting, I wouldnt be carrying. ( its not for show)

I dont have a CPL, and load/unload several times a day, I always chamber. I am not willing to risk my life by having a gun that is not ready to fire. This is why I will not carry a defensive weapon trhat has an electronic or thumb safety, people do forget things under stress. I may not have time to chamber a round, and I may not want to make the sound of chamberibng a round.

What about wheel guns?

Things could happen at a picnic too.


I follow the safety rules, and If I diddnt trust my gun not to just go off, I would choose a different gun. I wouldnt be too worried about an accidental discharge from my XD even if I threw it out of the window of a moving car.

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I have to agree with that...what...may i ask, is the point of carrying a weapon that is unable to fire until you chamber a round? I seriously doubt any criminal will have the same dilemma! If i were to (which i wont be able to till may...but still...) carry a loaded firearm for defensive purposes then i want to be able to defend myself as fast as possible!...chambering a round takes time, and in certain situations seconds can save lives...now i do realize that i am only 17, however ive spent the last month reading alot of informative posts on here and reading up on my MI laws...if its legal to carry with a chambered round, then i will.....JMO....feel free to tear apart my logic as you see fit, im always up for learning something

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The way I see it, as long as you are careful, and remember to drop the mag, eject, THEN pull the trigger. Of course, that only applies to Glocks and Glock type guns. Actually, it does apply to all firearms. But with Glocks, if you want to decock it, I believe that's the only way.

I knew there was a reason I prefer the 1911.

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T Vance wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

i also read a thread about a gun that was placed on the counter at the range and it spontainiously fired three shots ( by its self ) wounding a by stander!
cant say it was neglegent, nobody pulled the trigger,  was working fine up till then,
cant say it was an accident,  it wasnt dropped or miss handled, it was pointed in a safe direction.
 

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Not sure how true it is, but I've read about AR-15's that have been shot to the point they warmed up the gun and a round being left in the chamber was heated up and shot off without anyone pulling the trigger.

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This is a fact. I have seen it happen. After a long firefight a round in the chamber cooked off. I doubt anyone here will do. That much continous shooting..... Just sayin.....

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^^ I dont decock at all, its not necessary with my setup. I have the XD .40, I lock the slide open, drop the mag, and case the empty weapon. Reverse, I insert the mag, and then return the gun to battery. At this point the weapon is loaded and ready to fire, and at no time does my finger ever enter the trigger guard either loading or unloading.

An officer told me that although it wasnt necessary, he would prefer that the slide was locked back while in the case, that way there would be no question if the gun were loaded or not. I liked his logic, and have done it this way ever since.

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stainless1911 wrote:

^^ I dont decock at all, its not necessary with my setup. I have the XD .40, I lock the slide open, drop the mag, and case the empty weapon. Reverse, I insert the mag, and then return the gun to battery. At this point the weapon is loaded and ready to fire, and at no time does my finger ever enter the trigger guard either loading or unloading.

An officer told me that although it wasnt necessary, he would prefer that the slide was locked back while in the case, that way there would be no question if the gun were loaded or not. I liked his logic, and have done it this way ever since.

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That actually sounds like the perfect way to do it. Very little chance for an accident that way.

Normally, I might say "no way" but, I prefer to believe that nothing is 100% accident proof. It's best to think that accidents can happen, that way you stay alert.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

So by your illogical conclusion I can ascertain that all of the collisions caused by sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles are the result of negligent drivers and they should be charged criminally for such?

You obviously have a very limited amount of firearm experience and/or involvement.

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How is a car in any way similar to the way a gun operates? A full-auto - MAYBE, but those are a VERY small minority in the guns that a civilian typically sees in their lifetimes.

If a mechanical failure causes a hammer to drop over a live round - that could be an accidental discharge - but it could also be that the owner of the firearm was negligent in maintaining the gun.

If there's a manufacturer's defect which causes discharge - that's accidental. But that's also (anecdotally) a VERY minor percentage of discharges.

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I have the sudden urge to clean all of my firearms, or at least all of my pistols, be back in a couple of hours. LOL

God Bless

:celebrate :celebrate :celebrate :celebrate

Seriously though, I got some cleaning to do!

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autosurgeon wrote:

It was unfortunate and the way it was handled in that the people involved drove away instead of staying to face the music.

Also as others have said if he would not have had to handle the firearm it would not have happened.

Another point is that the gun was brand new and he had not carried it before. This is why practice with a certain firearms before carrying is very important. It is also a good idea to practice loading and unloading at the range many times before Ocing if you do NOT have a CPL as you will have to do it multiple times a day.

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+1

It was myself, autosurgeon, and like two-or-three other people.

It was about as loud as a table being dropped. The public didn't even notice. Maybe 5 minutes later, an older gentleman walked upto us and said "I think someone just shot a hole in the parking lot..."

Nobody was injured, the firearm was pointed in a safe direction when he cleared it.

At least it's not as bad as one of the ND's in Washington DC when Glocks were first being issued. 17-year old kid was killed, when the officer's newly issued Glock "Just went off".

Get some practice with your weapon.

FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER ALWAYS.

If you're going to decock the weapon, ALWAYS inspect the chamber about 4-5 times, even if you THINK YOU KNOW it's unloaded. Accidents do happen.

-Richard-