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Thread: Kwikrnu handgun carry permit suspended " Threat to Public "

  1. #1
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    For anyone who does not think that police departments are retaliatory check this out.

    I legally carried a black powder pistol in the City of Belle Meade in January. According to the City law it is legal. According to State law it is legal.

    I just received a letter from the TN Department of safety that my handgun carry permit is suspended. Because The Belle Meade police department says I "pose a material likelihood of risk to the public."

    I'll file a FOIA request for any documents the TN DOS has received and also for any documents that Belle meade has sent to the TN DOS.

    I'll probably petition for a hearing as that will be the quickest way to get the handgun carry permit back.





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    Good grief Kwikrnu, did you honestly believe this would not happen to you sooner or later?

    Sorry you lost your permit, but.....

    Sincerely, good luck with this.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Good grief Kwikrnu, did you honestly believe this would not happen to you sooner or later?

    Sorry you lost your permit, but.....

    Sincerely, good luck with this.
    I knew it would happen because cops are retaliatory. It happened last week when my Sheriff broke the law and did not properly execute my ATF form 4 for my silencer. He was suppossed to execute the form according to TCA 39-17-1361.

    Now, even though according to at least two supreme court decisions Andrews v State and Glasscock v State what I did was legal. TN State law has nothing to do with this according to TCA 39-17-1314(a). Belle Meade law says that is the only way I can carry.

    Now I have my damages against Belle Meade.

    Material risk to the public? What does that even mean? How can one be a material risk if they are obeying the law? That is like saying if I drive the speed limit I am reckless driving.





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    I dont have much to say except that you are not helping us at all man. People dont like us to opencarry agun in a holsterand fight to change the law's and here you are with a loaded gun in your hand walking down the road and a AK-47 at the park. You are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Sorry to tell you im glad your handgun carry permit has been suspended.

  5. #5
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    jeepman31 wrote:
    I dont have much to say except that you are not helping us at all man. People dont like us to opencarry agun in a holsterand fight to change the law's and here you are with a loaded gun in your hand walking down the road and a AK-47 at the park. You are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Sorry to tell you im glad your handgun carry permit has been suspended.
    I'm sorry you are too ignorant to look up the law and understand that the only legal manner of carry in Belle Meade, with or without a permit, is open carry in the hand.

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    That maybe but how ignorant can you get. You have families all over the place and you just walk around with a gun in your hand. Not to mention you went to a park with an ak-47. Use some common sense. Like I said I'm glad you had you permit taken. Walking around with a gun in your hand accidents could have happen you could have dropped it and shot a child get real. I open carry everyday and have never been on the news or permit revoked. I wonder why because a gun is not a toy you have to handle with caution not just carry it around in your hand. Quit looking for a law suit

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    jeepman31 wrote:
    That maybe but how ignorant can you get. You have families all over the place and you just walk around with a gun in your hand. Not to mention you went to a park with an ak-47. Use some common sense. Like I said I'm glad you had you permit taken. Walking around with a gun in your hand accidents could have happen you could have dropped it and shot a child get real. I open carry everyday and have never been on the news or permit revoked. I wonder why because a gun is not a toy you have to handle with caution not just carry it around in your hand. Quit looking for a law suit
    I would of carried the pistol in a holster, however it is illegal to carry it in a holster in Belle Meade.

    Open carry of an AK-47 pistol is legal in Tennesee.

    I am looking to be left alone. I've not asked to be detained, arrested, or have my permit suspended.

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    law or not but please use more common sense. I don't believe parents want to take their children to the park and see a guy with a ak-47even if their wasn't anyone their there could have been. Guns are a big enough issue without throwing AK-47 in the mix. I understand you may only be able to carry a hand gun in you hand where you live. But how would you feel if you seen someone walking down the road with a gun in their hand. I would be running thinking they were gonna rob a store or murder someone. Think before you act please. Don't ruin it for everyone else. I love that you are into are rights and carry a gun and if you are going to do that any more i think i would inform the leo's firstthat youare going to be doing that and thay may get a few calls. I know you shouldnt have to its your right but beter safe than sorry. a gun in your handor a AK-47 willscaresomeone andhave the cop's calld.sorry to sound like a pric but i think it is not helping opencarry

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    You've been pushin the envelope, looks like the envelope is pushin back.

    Well, with any luck for the rest of us, you won't get it back.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    kwikrnu,

    I strongly suggest retaining an attorney to handle what appears to be multiple violations of your rights as matters of state and federal law.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    While I do not think that Kwikrnu was carrying his firearm in the most tactful manner, it was, if I'm understanding this correctly, the only LEGAL way for a person to carry a firearm for protection at the place he was at.

    People on here are screaming that he is upsetting the apple cart and pushing the envelope. Perhaps, but he did point out the hypocrisy in the laws and how the laws need to be abolished.

    The patriots that dumped the tea in the harbor at the Boston Tea Party were bashed by many that considered the act to be wasteful and not the proper way to show disdain for the system.

    I believe that Kwikrnu was showing disdain for the overly restrictive laws and was well within his right to do what he did.

    I particularly like the ones on here, of all places, that fret over the venerable AK-47...it is one of those EVIL Guns you know. It's bullets kill you deader than other gun's bullets.

    The whole permit thing should be abolished anyway. Unless you are a criminal with criminal intentions, you should be able to carry a gun openly or concealed almost everywhere in these United States.

    The fact that the government can take away your permit merely because you may be a threat is ludicris. The founding fathers wrote the 2nd Amendment to acknowledge our God given right to self preservation. Not only is it for personal protection it is specifically there to give notice to the government that WE the People are armed, are allowed to be armed, and if they do not follow the Constitution, we can rise up against them. Thus, one intention of the 2nd Amendment is to let the government know that WE the People are indeed a threat. Perhaps that is why they continually try and disarm us.

    I think we should cut Kwikrnu some slack.



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    kwikrnu wrote:
    jeepman31 wrote:
    I dont have much to say except that you are not helping us at all man. People dont like us to opencarry agun in a holsterand fight to change the law's and here you are with a loaded gun in your hand walking down the road and a AK-47 at the park. You are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Sorry to tell you im glad your handgun carry permit has been suspended.
    I'm sorry you are too ignorant to look up the law and understand that the only legal manner of carry in Belle Meade, with or without a permit, is open carry in the hand.
    OK, come on - they are not going to enforce that old in the hand law you say exists and you know that carrying a handgun in your hand is not proper or safe and just the thing to get your permit revoked.

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    Mike wrote:
    kwikrnu wrote:
    jeepman31 wrote:
    I dont have much to say except that you are not helping us at all man. People dont like us to opencarry agun in a holsterand fight to change the law's and here you are with a loaded gun in your hand walking down the road and a AK-47 at the park. You are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Sorry to tell you im glad your handgun carry permit has been suspended.
    I'm sorry you are too ignorant to look up the law and understand that the only legal manner of carry in Belle Meade, with or without a permit, is open carry in the hand.
    OK, come on - they are not going to enforce that old in the hand law you say exists and you know that carrying a handgun in your hand is not proper or safe and just the thing to get your permit revoked.

    I'm not the only one who says the law exists. Belle Meade says it exists, and are trying to ammend their ordinance.

    Tennessee law does not preempt local ordinances which were in effect before April 8, 1986. Look at the maps on this website, even they state there is no State Preemption.

    It appears I am being punished by the good old boy system. Well, I don't need a permit to carry in Belle Meade and I do not need a permit to open carry an unloaded handgun for the time being.

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    gutshot wrote:
    turbodog wrote:
    You've been pushin the envelope, looks like the envelope is pushin back.

    Well, with any luck for the rest of us, you won't get it back.

    I bet you won't like it when they take yours for doing everything according to the law.
    I'll step in and risk what little reputation I have left withan observation or two.

    I think part of the problem is that the police rescinded the permit according to the law, too. Or, it sounds like it anyway. Unless the statutory recision authority specifies or limits the possible reasons for the police to take back the permit.

    For example, it is not illegal to be so mentally slow/retarded/deficient as to warrant institutionalization, or constant adult supervision as for examplean adult child so challenged that his parents have to take care of him for the rest of his life. Such a person walking about in public would be doing nothing illegal. Yet, it would be folly to permit him a firearm unsupervised.

    My point being that the law seems to say that acting legally is not in and of itself a mantle that protects from all gun permit rescisions.

    I'm neither lawyer nor legal expert. I am thinking that Kwikrnu is going to have to distinguish himself from nutcases in some way such that the court, police, whoever, can tell that he is in fact not dangerous. Because he certainly seems to have left the door open for that interpretation.

    Can he claim protest-carry? Can he claim carry-to-test the police dedication to 4A rights? I don't know. But, I would either be calling a lawyer, or thinking up an explanation that would convince the hearing examiner that I was not dangerous, and only carrying in-hand for some uncommon but not dangerous reason.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    gutshot wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    gutshot wrote:
    turbodog wrote:
    You've been pushin the envelope, looks like the envelope is pushin back.

    Well, with any luck for the rest of us, you won't get it back.
    I bet you won't like it when they take yours for doing everything according to the law.
    SNIP I'll step in and risk what little reputation I have left withan observation or two.
    SNIP I'm not a lawyer either, but I suspect that a court will say that the government will have to prove their case, not the other way around.
    I wonder. What does the statute permitting the rescision say? Does the rescinding agency have to prove why? Does the statute (or case law) specify criteria the agency must use in evaluating dangerousness?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Ahhhh. Here is some helpful information:

    http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpex...&cp=tncode



    39-17-1352. Suspension or revocation of license. — [Amended effective January 1, 2010. See the Compiler’s Notes.]

    (a) The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by itsrecords or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:

    (3) Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public;

    This would seem to mean that they cannot be totally arbitrary. They must have"a showing by its records" or"sufficient evidence." Plenty slippery, but not a blank check.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
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    IANAL.

    I lean toward the "statutorily legal, now foul" camp, despite controversy about kwirknu.

    Interstingly, and maybe I'm late to the game, I read an earlier thread, but is this like a Concealed Handgun Permit in VA or a gereral permit to have a handgun?

    I think he may have a Federal case against the locality.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

    --Robert A. Heinlein

    Hey NSA! *&$# you. Record this--- MOLON LABE!

  18. #18
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    Citizen wrote:
    Ahhhh. Here is some helpful information:

    http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpex...&cp=tncode




    39-17-1352. Suspension or revocation of license. — [Amended effective January 1, 2010. See the Compiler’s Notes.]


    (a) The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by itsrecords or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:


    (3) Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public;

    This would seem to mean that they cannot be totally arbitrary. They must have"a showing by its records" or"sufficient evidence." Plenty slippery, but not a blank check.
    Yes, it does have to be proven by a preponderence of the evidence. Just as any civil case is decided.

    1340-2-4-.18 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING AFTER SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT.




    (1) A person who has received a notice of suspension or revocation of a handgun carry permit will have the right to make a written request for an administrative hearing pursuant to the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, Title IV, Chapter 5 to challenge such suspension or revocation.

    (2) The written request for an administrative hearing must be filed with the department within thirty (30) days from the date appearing on the notice. Failure to make such request for hearing within the time specified shall without exception constitute a waiver of such right.

    (3) The person must surrender the handgun carry permit at the time of the request of the hearing is made, if the person has not previously surrendered such permit. Failure of the person to surrender such permit at the time the request for hearing is made, shall, without exception, constitute a waiver of such right.

    (4) A request for a hearing will not stay the suspension or revocation.

    (5) Within thirty (30) days from the date the request for hearing is filed, the department will establish a hearing date and set the case on a docket. This shall not be construed as requiring the hearing to be conducted within the thirty (30) day period.

    (6) The hearing will be held at a place designated by the department.

    April, 2007 (Revised) 13 HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT PROCEDURES CHAPTER 1340-2-4 (Rule 1340-2-4-.18, continued)




    (7) The department will provide written notice of the time and place of the hearing to the party requesting the hearing at least ten (10) days prior to the scheduled hearing, unless the party agrees to waive this requirement.

    (8) The hearing officer will be the commissioner or an authorized representative designated by the commissioner.

    (9) The hearing officer will have the authority to:



    (a) Administer oaths and affirmations;

    (b) Examine witnesses and take testimony;

    (c) Receive relevant evidence;

    (d) Issue subpoenas, take depositions, or cause depositions or interrogatories to be taken;

    (e) Regulate the course and conduct of the hearing; and

    (f) Make a final ruling on the issues.

    (10) The sole issue at the hearing will be whether by a preponderance of the evidence the person has violated any provision of this rule or T.C.A. § 39-17-1351 thru 1360.

    (11) If the hearing officer finds in favor of the department, the suspension or revocation order will be sustained. The department will also notify the sheriff or chief law enforcement officer of the permittee’s county of residence of such finding.

    (12) If the hearing finds in favor of the person requesting the hearing, the suspension or revocation order will be rescinded. The department will also notify the sheriff or chief law enforcement officer of the permittee’s county of residence of such finding.

    (13) The hearing will be recorded.

    (14) The decision of the hearing officer will be rendered in writing, and a copy will be provided to the person who requested the hearing.

    (15) If the person who requested the hearing fails to appear without just cause, the right to a hearing will be waived and the department’s earlier determination will be final.

    (16) Witnesses under subpoena will be entitled to the same fees as are now or may hereafter be provided for witnesses in civil actions in the circuit court and, unless otherwise provided by law or by law or by action of the agency, the party requesting the subpoena will bear the cost of paying fees to the witnesses subpoenaed.

    (17) An appeal from the final decision of the department under these administrative procedures is to the chancery court of the permittee’s county of residence.

    Authority:
    T.C.A. §§39-17-1351; 39-17-1353; 39-17-1354; 39-17-1355; 39-17-1358; 39-17-1360 and 4-3-2009. Administrative History: Original rule filed September 16, 1996; effective January 28, 1997. Repeal and new rule filed February 23, 1999; effective June 28, 1999.

    April, 2007 (Revised) 14 HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT PROCEDURES CHAPTER 1340-2-4

    1340-2-4-.19 DIRECT JUDICIAL REVIEW AFTER DENIAL, SUSPENSION, OR REVOCATION OF HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT.




    (1) In the case of a denial of a handgun carry permit, the applicant shall have a right to directly petition the general sessions court of his or her county of residence within thirty (30) days from the date appearing on the notice of denial for judicial review of the departmental denial of a permit. A copy of the petition is to be sent to the district attorney, and the Department of Safety at the address on the petition. The clerk of the court will forward a copy of the petition for review to the sheriff who will serve it on the state. Alternatively, the clerk of the court may return a copy of the petition to the petitioner who will then lodge it with the sheriff who will mail it to the state via certified return receipt mail. In either instance, the sheriff must serve the petition for judicial review upon the Commissioner of the Department of Safety.

    (2) In the case of a suspension or revocation, the permittee may, as an alternative to the administrative review process set forth in Rule 1340-2-4-.18, within thirty (30) days of the issuance of the final determination of the department, directly petition the general sessions court of the person’s residence, for judicial review. A copy of the petition is to be sent to the district attorney, and the Department of Safety at the address on the petition.

    (3) The district attorney general of the county where the petition is filed shall represent the department.

    (4) The district attorney general’s office shall notify the Handgun Carry Permit Section in the Department of Safety upon receipt of a handgun carry permit petition. The district attorney general shall advise the Handgun Carry Permit Section of any pending hearing date on the petition.

    (5) The district attorney general’s office shall immediately notify the Handgun Carry Permit Section of any disposition of any hearing or settlement on the filed petition.

    (6) The district attorney general shall advise the Handgun Carry Permit Section as to whether the case should or should not be appealed.

    Authority:
    T.C.A. §§39-17-1352; 39-17-1353; 39-17-1354; 39-17-1357; 39-17-1360 and 4-3-2009. Administrative History: Original rule filed September 16, 1996; effective January 28, 1997. Repeal and new rule filed February 23, 1999; effective June 28, 1999.

    1340-2-4-.20 REINSTATEMENT OF HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT AFTER SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION.




    (1) Not withstanding the provisions of paragraph (2); prior to the reinstatement of a handgun carry permit after a suspension or revocation, such person will be required to meet all statutory and regulatory eligibility requirements and finger-printing requirements. Such persons will also be required to have successfully completed a Department of Safety approved handgun safety course including exceptions as provided in Rule 1340-2-4-.05(4) within the previous six months, and pay the one hundred and fifteen dollar ($115.00) application fee.

    (2) Prior to reinstatement of a permit suspended pursuant to 1340-2-4-.15(3) and (4), the permittee shall pay a reinstatement fee of twenty five dollars ($25.00) with one-half of such fee payable to the Department of Safety and one-half payable to the court that suspended the permit.



    (a) Prior to the reinstatement of the permit, the permittee shall have paid in full all fines, court costs, and restitution, if any, required by the sentencing court.

    (b) The applicant must complete any terms of probation imposed by the court. Such failure to complete any terms of probation imposed by the court shall be a bar to reinstatement of the handgun carry permit.

    April, 2007 (Revised) 15 HANDGUN CARRY PERMIT PROCEDURES CHAPTER 1340-2-4 (Rule 1340-2-4-.20, continued)






    (c) Prior to the reissuance of the permit, the department shall verify that the permittee has complied with all reinstatement requirements of subdivision (a) by furnishing the department with certification from the court that the permittee has paid in full all fines, and court costs, and restitution; and has completed any terms of probation imposed by the court.

    Authority:
    T.C.A. §§39-17-1352; 39-17-1360 and 4-3-2009. Administrative History: Original rule filed February 23, 1999; effective June 28, 1999.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Fallschirmjger's Avatar
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    So.....

    Time to open carry a long arm, since they don't want you carrying a pistol?


  20. #20
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    Kwikrnu, I think you are off the wall and have poor taste (orange AK pistol) but if as reported broke no laws. good luck and I hope you prevail.

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    While I don't agree 100% with what he is doing and think that he is going against the grain of good common sense , if he has followed the law completely in carrying these 2 firearms , he should not be in trouble.







































  22. #22
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    Fallschirmjäger wrote:
    So.....

    Time to open carry a long arm, since they don't want you carrying a pistol?
    It isn't illegal to open carry a pistol in Belle Meade as long as you do it openly in the hand.I didn't carry under any authority granted by the handgun carry permit.

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    Good. You have proven yourself unfit to carry a firearm in public. That letter just seals the deal.

  24. #24
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    jeepman31 wrote:
    I dont have much to say except that you are not helping us at all man. People dont like us to opencarry agun in a holsterand fight to change the law's and here you are with a loaded gun in your hand walking down the road and a AK-47 at the park. You are doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Sorry to tell you im glad your handgun carry permit has been suspended.
    It's not that he brought an AK to a park. I have no issue with that. It's that he started with a large revolver, publicly stating his intention to elicit a response from LE by OCing a large revolver, and he got none. He then publicly stated he would step up to something more conspicuous - an AK pistol, chosen specifically for it's appearance - to see if THAT would elicit a response.

    It did.

    For some reason, which Leonard still refuses to give, he also painted the muzzle orange, presumably to make it appear to be an airsoft toy, rather than a real firearm. Why he would deliberately attempt to confuse a real firearm for an airsoft is unknown, but any reasonable person could assume that it would be to gain tactical advantage over an LEO - a possibility that Leonard has affirmed.

    While Leonard has committed no crime, he has given more than ample evidence of being a highly unstable person who is looking for a fight with LE. I believe he seeks a situation where he can justify - if not to us all, at least to himself - shooting a police officer "in defense of his rights".

    He is a threat to public safety and to the preservation of gun rights.

  25. #25
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    Citizen wrote:
    Ahhhh. Here is some helpful information:

    http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpex...&cp=tncode



    39-17-1352. Suspension or revocation of license. — [Amended effective January 1, 2010. See the Compiler’s Notes.]

    (a) The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by itsrecords or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:

    (3) Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public;

    This would seem to mean that they cannot be totally arbitrary. They must have"a showing by its records" or"sufficient evidence." Plenty slippery, but not a blank check.
    I'm sure they could easily make their case by submitting all of Leonard's posts here and on Glocktalk as "sufficient evidence".

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