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Thread: 9mm vs .357 magnum / small gun vs. big gun

  1. #1
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    Full article here:
    http://www.libertarianpunk.com/2010/...vs-357-magnum/

    Synopsis: Metal plate tests at 11 yards with .357 mag and 9mm.

    Guns: Ruger GP-100 and Springfield XD.

    Short form of results: Holes are from .357 mag, dents are from 9mm:





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    So your point is that .357 over-penetrates?


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    lol....

    No, hollow point.357 expands once in. And .357 is the smallest caliber that can cause remote wounding by Hydrostatic Shock.

    My point is it's not going to be slowed down by heavy clothing.

    I have a friend here in Wyoming who says "9mm before Labor Day, .40 after Labor Day."

    And we have beasts here that can kill you, like cougars and bears. I'd rather face one with .357 than with 9mm.

    I should have qualified, "It's a better carry gun/round for the Rocky Mountains."


    MWD

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    I used to live in Arlington, near your town. There are a lot more dangerous two-legged beasts there. They come over on the Metro or drive stolen cars across the Key Bridge, and usually wear t-shirts.

    In Wyoming the dangerous beasts are more likely four-legged, and the few two-legged ones are more likely in thick coats or leather jackets.

    MWD

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    Actually, I believe your test shows that .357 won't be slowed down by steel.

    9mm has been shown numerous times to penetrate multiple layers of clothing just fine. Sometimes hollowpoints will fail to expand, but they always penetrate. As a matter of fact, one of the drawbacks to 9mm ball is overpenetration in gel.

    I suppose a .357 would be a better choice if you were expecting a bear, but then again if the first shot doesn't stop him you've only got 5 more tries. Everything is a tradeoff. There is no perfect gun or caliber.

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    IMHO calibers for self defense against banditos and animals are two different things. I you are worried about 2 legged (people) the 9 mm will work just as well as a .357 mag, given proper bullet placement.

    For protection against animals, I would not consider less than hot loaded .357 mag hard cast bullets. If bears, especially big bears are on the menu, you really don’t have any options less than a .44 Mag. and several better options goin up from there (.460 S&W, .500 S&W) etc. For serious animal protection, consider one of the heaviest hard cast bullets for caliber from one of the premium cast bullet makers.

    Of course, if big dangerous critters (2 legged or 4 legged) are lurking about, a rifle or shotgun, applying an appropriate bullet, slug or buckshot is always a better option than a pistol.

    Steve


    Edited fer spellin
    Steve


    "Life is hard, its even harder when you are stupid!"

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    I hike in back country Colorado wilderness weekly. I carry a .45 ACP hollow point, jacketed- and Yes I definitely still worry about the larger bears.. or more scary- a mountain lion attack- which will most likely come 100% as a surprise. I would Much Much Much rather carry a rifle, but it's not practical for the movements needed to hike extreme terrain. That steel plate definitely reinforced an idea I had last night: definitely Need a .357 Magnum revolver- preferably double action only. I would honestly replace my 45 ACP Semi Auto pistol with a .357 Revolver with either the magnum round for self defense or 380s for practice. I just honestly can't stand the thought of my .45 ACP jamming up with the bear running full speed at me.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    That steel plate definitely reinforced an idea I had last night: definitely Need a .357 Magnum revolver- preferably double action only.
    Why double action only?

    MWD

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    Simply preference. I prefer a hammer-less design. From personal experience, handguns without hammers are less likely to get "caught" on a strap or clothing, etc. No big deal.

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Simply preference. I prefer a hammer-less design. From personal experience, handguns without hammers are less likely to get "caught" on a strap or clothing, etc. No big deal.
    Ahhh...Thank you.

    MWD

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    IMO, I was under the impression that for self defense, it is better to have a round that does not over penetrate and leave your target. No reason to have rounds go through the bad guy and injure another unnecessarily. I would rather that it hit the target, expand and if it leaves it has a limited ability to do harm to what is on the other side. Therefore I carry a .40 Federal Hydroshock. It has stopping power but will not over penetrate.

    Hiking or outdoor activities in which you may encounter bears, cougars, etc may require a different round.
    Live Free or Die!

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    .45acp wrote:
    Of course, if big dangerous critters (2 legged or 4 legged) are lurking about, a rifle or shotgun, applying an appropriate bullet, slug or buckshot is always a better option than a pistol.

    Steve
    I keep a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun by the bed.

    First round is a slug, next five are double-00 buckshot.

    I have a bright LED flashlight taped onto the end of the barrel. I believe that's what's known as "Bubba tactical." lol.





    I also put a piece of tape over the end of the barrel to keep cat hair out. Our house is full of it, no matter how often we vacuum. The tape blows off no problem without affecting the trajectory at in-home distances. I did a test at the range.

    MWD

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    Yeah exactly on over penetrating. Don't need your round going through the bad guy and landing in your wife's left leg.

    I have that 9mm Hydrashock round and I love it- it's in a Bersa Thunder Pro

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Therefore I carry a .40 Federal Hydroshock. It has stopping power but will not over penetrate.
    My wife carries that in a Glock, in a carry purse.

    It's a preference thing. I really like revolvers, she hates 'em. I don't like plastic semi-autos, she loves 'em. The XD I used in the test is also hers. It's now her "laundry gun" (gun hidden loaded in the laundry room.)

    MWD

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Simply preference. I prefer a hammer-less design. From personal experience, handguns without hammers are less likely to get "caught" on a strap or clothing, etc. No big deal.


    The hammerless .357 mag are small and light weight, I have a S&W M&P 340. It is not pleasant nor easy to shoot with hot .38's much less a hot .357 mag.

    Agian IMHO, you would be much better off with a 4" 686 and have the hammer bobbed and a lighted up smooth DA trigger job by a good smith. For animals, the hard cast bullets give better (read deeper) penetration than Jacketed HP's.

    Also, if you are worried that you 1911 could jam up, you are using the wrong ammo, or it needs to worked over by a good smith. Load it with 230 gr ball.

    Just my opinion....like everything else on the net...ya get what ya pay for.:shock:



    Steve
    Steve


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    .45acp wrote
    The hammerless .357 mag are small and light weight, I have a S&W M&P 340. It is not pleasant nor easy to shoot with hot .38's much less a hot .357 mag.
    Actually that's another reason I like the big gun. The Ruger GP100 revolver has very easy to handle recoil with .357 and almost none with .38.

    It's a much different bird than my snubbie (Taurus 605). .38 kicks in that, and .357 HURTS. If I shoot five rounds of .357 in that, my hand stings like I've been shooting a shotgun. I shot 100 rounds of .357 in the GP 100 yesterday and it didn't hurt a bit.

    It's also more powerful.

    According to tests here:
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

    a six-inch barrel is about 1 1/2 times as powerful as the same .357 in a two-inch barrel. In a two-inch barrel, a good bit of the powder exits the end unburned.

    The six-inch is also more accurate. I was hitting those 5.5-inch plates at 11 yards nine out of ten times. I can only do about half that with the snubbie.

    MWD

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    cscitney87 wrote:
    Yeah exactly on over penetrating. Don't need your round going through the bad guy and landing in your wife's left leg.

    From the FBI's notes on the 10 mm:

    "The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might "over-penetrate" the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that."

    And from
    http://www.lesjones.com/posts/003216.shtml :

    "Grogan and Dove were the two FBI agents killed in the 1986 Miami shootout with a pair of bank robbers named Platt and Matix. Five other agents were wounded. Matix fired only one shot, which missed. Platt did all of the rest of the fighting against the FBI agents and arriving Metro-Dade police officers. He soaked up numerous bullet wounds, including several rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot that hit his legs as he wriggled out of a wrecked car, and one 9 mm hollowpoint round that entered through his arm early in the fight and stopped just short of his heart. Platt was pretty much everyone's worst nightmare - ex-military, well-practiced, and unrelenting. "As a result of ammunition failures in Miami, the FBI undertook a program of extensive ammunition testing. The FBI concluded that a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin was necessary for reliable incapacitation, and "18 inches is better."

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    .45acp wrote:
    cscitney87 wrote:
    Simply preference. I prefer a hammer-less design. From personal experience, handguns without hammers are less likely to get "caught" on a strap or clothing, etc. No big deal.


    The hammerless .357 mag are small and light weight, I have a S&W M&P 340. It is not pleasant nor easy to shoot with hot .38's much less a hot .357 mag.

    Agian IMHO, you would be much better off with a 4" 686 and have the hammer bobbed and a lighted up smooth DA trigger job by a good smith. For animals, the hard cast bullets give better (read deeper) penetration than Jacketed HP's.

    Also, if you are worried that you 1911 could jam up, you are using the wrong ammo, or it needs to worked over by a good smith. Load it with 230 gr ball.

    Just my opinion....like everything else on the net...ya get what ya pay for.:shock:



    Steve
    Thanks Steve. I always adhere to the old saying: Simpler the better. I only own semi-auto pistols right now but my next purchase is going to be a 357 Mag DA revolver. I am going to fit in a new Glock 22 for $600 shipped (GlockWorld) as well. I already have a pistol chambered for the .40SW so I welcome the Glock. I am growing fond of the .40SW cartridge.

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    .45acp wrote:
    IMHO calibers for self defense against banditos and animals are two different things. I you are worried about 2 legged (people) the 9 mm will work just as well as a .357 mag, given proper bullet placement.

    For protection against animals, I would not consider less than hot loaded .357 mag hard cast bullets. If bears, especially big bears are on the menu, you really don’t have any options less than a .44 Mag. and several better options goin up from there (.460 S&W, .500 S&W) etc. For serious animal protection, consider one of the heaviest hard cast bullets for caliber from one of the premium cast bullet makers.

    Of course, if big dangerous critters (2 legged or 4 legged) are lurking about, a rifle or shotgun, applying an appropriate bullet, slug or buckshot is always a better option than a pistol.

    Steve


    Edited fer spellin
    If you shoot anything in the face, enough, it'll leave you alone :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

  20. #20
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    .45acp wrote:
    .... If bears, especially big bears are on the menu,
    I think in this case, the bears aren't on the menu, but rather, you are on the bears' menu.

    :what:

    MWD

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    About shooting to the face: I agree with that but

    "Mountain lions have extraordinary vision and are remarkably fast. From a standing position, mountain lions can jump a vertical distance of up to 15 feet and a horizontal distance of 40 feet. Mountain lions choose deer as prey more than any other animal, but..."

    http://www.mountainlion.org/facts_faq.asp

    "Facts about the Size of Male Mountain Lions
    Fully grown they reach the height of 7 to 8 feet
    An adult weighs between 100 and 250 pounds"




    Those really live in Colorado & Wyoming etc etc Rocky Mountains. Plus bears. Plus coyotes. Plus bobcats (smaller cousin to mnt lion)...
    You are actually not likely to hit that animal in the face once, twice, or three times. Not likely. No offense just saying what we carry for humans versus animals is a very serious discussion that merits thought and engagement.

    Cool and Fun Facts about the life, behavior and personality of Mountain Lions
    • Keen sense of hearing and sight
    • Solitary animals
    • Extremely agile - can leap up to 20 feet
    • Sharp Claws
    • Strong Jaws


  22. #22
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    catass wrote
    If you shoot anything in the face, enough, it'll leave you alone :-)
    Not always. Sometimes they'll charge you to try to stop it.

    Boston's Gun Bible has a story of a friend of Boston's who was attacked by a mountain lion (which are not nearly as big as some bears, most mountain lions weigh under 200 pounds) and it took five shots of .357 from a snubbie to take it down.

    I was looking for a news story I read about a small bear (150 pounds) in Colorado that got in someone's home, the guy shot it with a 12-guage shotgun, got out of the house and called 911. The cops came and the bear was still confrontational. They shot it three times with .40 handguns, it was still ready to fight. It took a cop's rifle to bring it down.

    I couldn't find the story though, I searched the words
    bear shotgun rifle Colorado police
    on google and apparently there are 33,100 pages on the Internet that contain all those words!

    I did run across the story of how there have been 26 attacks in downtown Denver in four months of black gangs targeting and assaulting random white people, while yelling "f*&^ You whitey!" and things like that while they gang up and beat them senseless.

    No mention of the phrase "hate crime" in that story though:
    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...21/detail.html

    Gangs haven't made it much to Wyoming. Only a little in Cheyenne. They haven't made it to Casper yet. I'm ready if they do. I may start open carrying the FAL if they do. That's legal here.



    And no I'm not racist, and I'm not a skinhead. That's just my summer 'doo.

    MWD

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