Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: Open Letter to all members of Michigan Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    666

    Post imported post

    To all members of Michigan Open Carry,

    For those of you who are upset and angry over my post and have stated through posting, email, or voicemail that you expect a public apology and for me to remove the thread immediately, I will not. I did not attack anyone on a personal level and will never stoop to that level. If you are a leader and don't feel comfortable OCing, or do not have the time to donate due to other obligations I understand, however you need to reconsider if you are right for the position. I find it sad that several leaders feel it is okay for them not to OC as much as is possible. This is in direct contradiction to the goals and ideals of what MOC was founded on. I will not support that mind set nor can I allow myself to be led by those who feel its okay to not OC as a leader of MOC. Therefore effective immediately I resign my position of SE Coordinator. I will continue to fight for second amendment rights as I have my entire life. I will continue doing interviews with the media. Seeing as my views of OCing do not coincide with the leadership of MOC I will refrain from referring to the organization in any future interviews. This group has turned away dedicated individuals before me and is continuing to do so. I hope that leadership of the group will realize the only way to lead is by example. The derogatory voicemails and threats of personal attacks against me are uncalled for. My post addressed issues of open carrying, not once attacking someone as a person. Any future communications with me may be done via email at sprinklerguy28@yahoo.com.

    Sincerely,
    Scott Webb

  2. #2
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    I would like to be the first to ask you to re-consider and try to let the BS roll off your back.

    I think you are a huge asset to MOC Inc. and the OC movement in general.

    Personally I thank you for your efforts.



  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440

    Post imported post

    dougwg wrote:
    I would like to be the first to ask you to re-consider and try to let the BS roll off your back.

    I think you are a huge asset to MOC Inc. and the OC movement in general.

    Personally I thank you for your efforts.

    *
    I am very sad that sprinklerguy28 has decided to resign. With that being said, there is no "BS is to roll off his back". An elected board member has openly admitted to NEVER open carrying. That is not BS.

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    I too feel you should reconsider Scott! It's ok to walk back the cat! I know I have had to do more times then I care to remember.

    You have been doing a great job on the east side and we need people like you!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  5. #5
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Do you really wanna go there with me?, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Scott,

    Your past efforts are appreciated regardless of your decision. This is truly an unfortunateday for MOC should you choose to part paths.Your passion is admirable, your dedication is honorable; it is unfortunate that your temper remains on a hair-trigger.

    Whatever direction you walk Scott, on whatever journey in life it may be, walk it with a cautious step, don't let you anger get the best of you. Remember the 24 hour rule and you will be fine.

    Should you have second thoughts about this, please do not be embarrased to let us know. I can only speak for myself at this point, but I believe we can move forward past this as patriots and men.
    United we STAND!

  6. #6
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    Scott,

    Whatever you do, I hope youkeep all of us (MOC or not) informedof your get-togethers and stayinvolved with others' get-togethers (MOC or not). Sounds like you will.It's fine if you stay in MOC and advocate for change from the inside (or run for a leadership role), but it's fine too if you don't. Open carry involvement comes first. . . membership,non-membership, agreements, disagreements, etc.withinincorporated organizationsis way down on mylist. That's my view.

    Hope to be seein' ya soon!

    Dan
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?
    Oliver Heaviside (1850-1925) English physicist.

    In other words, is it absolutely necessary that all elected officers and membership are required to OC 24/7/365, if at all, to be productive representatives of MOC? I think not. As most of you know, there's much more to the objectives of MOC, Inc. then just walking around with a holstered pistol on your side. We have MOC members who, for reasons beyond their control, do not OC. Does that mean they are not worthy enough to bepart of the organization? No, of course not. Think about it folks.

    And Scott, please reconsider your resignation.






  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    I have to say that since meeting Scott I've become much more active in my 2A volunteering activities. Just in the short time I've known him I can say I've learned a lot more from him in the few discussions we've had then the totality of all my experiences with 2A and open carry in general. I can trulely say that I've never met someone with such dedication to a cause. I hope to learn more from him in the future.

    I donate a lot of time even though I don't have any extra and I've also started spending more money then I thought I would by driving across the state and printing out fliers. Even though this has got me in to arguments with my wife
    I've managed to work out a budget and understanding from my family and they're supporting me. I'm going to continue and am never going to stop. I don't ask for anything in return because I'm not doing this because I want something in return. I do it because it makes me feel good and that I can make a difference.

    As for MOC Inc. I don't know how much longer I can support this organization and that is why I've stated the below message.

    I'm suppose to be working so I will keep this brief.


    I see many problems with MOC from an organizational perspective. If the board is serious about taking MOC to the next level I would like to suggest planning an open meeting in a central location at a date that works for most people to discuss these issues. Listen we're all here fighting for the same cause and if the board is serious they will take heed as to what's being said and take actions to resolve them without resorting to personal attacks. There needs to be dialog between the members of the board and the members of MOC and I feel that it is quite lacking and that in itself is half the problem.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    666

    Post imported post

    I have not and will not say everyone needs to OC all the time. However when leadership openly admits to never OCing or does not OC until others arrive is unacceptable. Even more unacceptable was the threats made to me by several people. I can look past almost anything. Jeff, this is not a action based on quick temper so your 24hr rule is irrelevant. I will always support OC, take on legal battles with cities, and organize events. I would have loved to do this in stride with MOC. However, with the threats made to me in private which will never be stated or posted publicly caused me to lose respect for MOC. On MOC's website I encourage all of you to read the objectives and methods on the home page. I voiced my concern in these not being followed by our leadership as a whole. As individuals the board is full of great people, I just felt they were not leading by example and those who vote to elect them had a right to hear since not all can be everywhere to see. When new members show up to an event and are not able to locate the group because leadership is not OCing, this is a major concern. I can not agree with leadership never OCing. This does not make these people bad people, but I do question the ability to lead an open carry group. How can you advocate open carry and encourage others to follow when you do not practice what you preach? Would you take sky diving lessons from someone who has never or chooses not to jump out of a plane? For the pm's I have already received in support I thank all of you. I am not going anywhere. I will not stop fighting for our rights. It was a decision based on the comments made to me in private, that I feel I would not be able to continue to work in a positive manner with some of the leadership. To not be a cohesive leadership group would be detrimental and a disservice to all of you.

  10. #10
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    I have to say that since meeting Scott I've become much more active in my 2A volunteering activities. Just in the short time I've known him I can say I've learned a lot more from him in the few discussions we've had then the totality of all my experiences with 2A and open carry in general. I can trulely say that I've never met someone with such dedication to a cause. I hope to learn more from him in the future.

    I'm suppose to be working so I will keep this brief.


    I see many problems with MOC from an organizational perspective. If the board is serious about taking MOC to the next level I would like to suggest planning an open meeting in a central location at a date that works for most people to discuss these issues. Listen we're all here fighting for the same cause and if the board is serious they will take heed as to what's being said and take actions to resolve them without resorting to personal attacks. There needs to be dialog between the members of the board and the members of MOC and I feel that it is quite lacking and that in itself is half the problem.
    Note refuting what you are saying Mike. BUT dialog goes both ways. And our email addresses are listed on the MOC website and we all have accounts here with PM available.

    If people have a concern there are many ways to contact the MOC leadership.

    Only a few people have emailed or PMed me and unless I know about a concern I cannot do anything about it. I would imagine this is the same for the board members as well.


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  11. #11
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    If someone or several people threatened you, we(read: members of MOC Inc. and the owners of OCDO) NEED to know who these people are and they need to be dealt with accordingly.

    There should be no tolerance for that type of behavior.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    autosurgeon wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    I have to say that since meeting Scott I've become much more active in my 2A volunteering activities. Just in the short time I've known him I can say I've learned a lot more from him in the few discussions we've had then the totality of all my experiences with 2A and open carry in general. I can trulely say that I've never met someone with such dedication to a cause. I hope to learn more from him in the future.

    I'm suppose to be working so I will keep this brief.


    I see many problems with MOC from an organizational perspective. If the board is serious about taking MOC to the next level I would like to suggest planning an open meeting in a central location at a date that works for most people to discuss these issues. Listen we're all here fighting for the same cause and if the board is serious they will take heed as to what's being said and take actions to resolve them without resorting to personal attacks. There needs to be dialog between the members of the board and the members of MOC and I feel that it is quite lacking and that in itself is half the problem.
    Note refuting what you are saying Mike. BUT dialog goes both ways. And our email addresses are listed on the MOC website and we all have accounts here with PM available.

    If people have a concern there are many ways to contact the MOC leadership.

    Only a few people have emailed or PMed me and unless I know about a concern I cannot do anything about it. I would imagine this is the same for the board members as well.

    Well I hate to break it to you but informal emails is not the way to communicate consistently or professionally. Many times emails fall on deaf ears. I've myself voiced long emails to the board email address which I assume is everyone and received very little to none response in return. Matter of fact I've sent many detailed emails. The leadership of MOC Inc I feel has a lot to learn and is burning bridges with it's most active followers.

    If personal attacks were made by members of the board toward an active member I feel those members of the board should be removed from their posts.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,756

    Post imported post

    I am not now and have never been a member of MOC. Lest that deter folks from reading further please understand that in order for an organization to encourage increased membership that organization must have credibility...

    And in order to be looked upon as credible by the public an organization must hold true to it's goals while it's leaders practice what they preach.

    Any anti can, and will, seize upon an organizations leadership not practicing what they preach in order to smear the entire organization and it's goals. And that tactic will work too.

    Please note that I am not singling out any individuals nor am I unsympathetic to the circumstances that individuals have to deal with in life.

    I am simply stating that for an organization to be looked upon as credible and for it's goals and beliefs to be looked upon as valid and worthy of respect... then it's leaders first must be true to the organizations founding principles.

    If MOC wishes to grow, be effective, and be recognized as a legitimate pro rights organization then it's leadership must..... lead.... especially by example.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  14. #14
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    dougwg wrote:
    If someone or several people threatened you, we(read: members of MOC Inc. and the owners of OCDO) NEED to know who these people are and they need to be dealt with accordingly.

    There should be no tolerance for that type of behavior.
    I agree with this as well!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    I feel the board members who made personal attacks against a member of the MOC should all admit responsibility immediately and action should be taken. If this is not done I will no longer support Michigan Open Carry.

  16. #16
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    I for one will respond to any mail I receive whether via email,PM or snail mail. I may not have the answer but I will respond.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    I feel the board members who made personal attacks against a member of the MOC should all admit responsibility immediately and action should be taken. If this is not done I will no longer support Michigan Open Carry.
    i agree.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    576

    Post imported post

    Hey how about using teamspeak as a form of communication. Or if the there is going to be vote,then email the members and ask them for there input before you vote, that way you know what your members want !


    I for one, am tired of all this bickering and feuding, and the best t way to solve the problem is to COMMUNICATE.

    I offered in the beginning, to solve all of the I T issues using my son, who is a I T person but was told no thanks. So here we sit with NO (I T)

    And yes he is only 25 but he is 1 of 2 in the state that has his qualifications.

  19. #19
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    This is in the works Mastiff. We already use it for internal discussions and general skull sessions.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:

    I see many problems with MOC from an organizational perspective. If the board is serious about taking MOC to the next level I would like to suggest planning an open meeting in a central location at a date that works for most people to discuss these issues. Listen we're all here fighting for the same cause and if the board is serious they will take heed as to what's being said and take actions to resolve them without resorting to personal attacks. There needs to be dialog between the members of the board and the members of MOC and I feel that it is quite lacking and that in itself is half the problem.
    I'm serious about my above quote. The #1 issue I see is very poor communication specifically with paying members. I tend to get the feeling that the full board doesn't want to do the above for some reason. Confronting the brutal facts is a key for any organization to be successful.

    As for it being a misunderstanding yeah thats very possible but the underlying problem is that nasty/unprofessional things were happening behind the scenes which kinda negates the possibilities of resolving a misunderstanding. Like I said above communication, communication, communication.

    If the board is unable to address the underlying issues then everything I say or do it fruitless.


    Mike

    PS: if you would like to discuss this further dont hesitate to pm me.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MOC IT / Midland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    mastiff69 wrote:
    Hey how about using teamspeak as a form of communication. Or if the there is going to be vote,then email the members and ask them for there input before you vote, that way you know what your members want !


    I for one, am tired of all this bickering and feuding, and the best t way to solve the problem is to COMMUNICATE.

    I offered in the beginning, to solve all of the I T issues using my son, who is a I T person but was told no thanks. So here we sit with NO (I T)

    And yes he is only 25 but he is 1 of 2 in the state that has his qualifications.
    mastiff69... There are 2 members of IT for MOC. If there are IT related problems, please let us know it@miopencarry.org

    We have been working really hard on a lot of new stuff over the past few weeks that will be released in the next 2 - 3 weeks...

    Myself, I do not get emails sent to board@miopencarry.org - that is treasurer, secretary, pres, and vp.

  22. #22
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Monroe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,196

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    I feel the board members who made personal attacks against a member of the MOC should all admit responsibility immediately and action should be taken. If this is not done I will no longer support Michigan Open Carry.
    I'm with you on this. This information needs to be made public, and whoever did it has taken the site to a new low. Shame on you.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  23. #23
    Guest

    Post imported post

    It looks like Michigan Open Carry is continuing it's implosion.

    Is it possible that the leadership can not lead? And refuses to follow also?



  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Montague, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    By definition, someone who refuses to set the example, and waits to follow the lead of others is not a leader. It has been proven for centuries that we learn by watching what others do more than by what we read or hear. For this reason, anyone in a leadership role not acting as a leader should be removed, for they are there for the wrong reasons. Allowing them to continue will have effects more detrimental to our goal than anything the anti's can throw at us. I believe we would all stand our ground diligently if the threat to OC was from an outside source, and we can not change our course for a threat from inside.

    Sprinklerguy, please reconsider, there are trouble's within this organization that need to be corrected and we could use the help and support of people with your passion.



  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Romulus/Wayne County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    306

    Post imported post

    Just wondering if anyone is keeping count of MOC.INC quitters

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •