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Thread: Kinda off topic...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    I saw and responded to a statement on another thread about a guy who was involved in a traffic stop and the LEO asked for his girlfriend's/wife's (I can't remember which)ID. She was a passenger in the vehicle. I questioned the legality of this. Should a passenger of a vehicle have to hand over his/her ID???

    I sent my question to the Michigan State Police website and this is the response I received...



    "Thank you for your interest in traffic safety and for posting your question to
    the MSP website. It has been forwarded to my office for a response.

    If the person has broken a law, then they must provide identification to the
    officer. Most officers always ask (as did I) for identification from all
    passengers inside of the vehicle. This serves several purposes, foremost
    helping the officer to know who he is dealing with. Also, the person may have
    warrants and the officer is able to verify this with their identification.
    Generally, most people do not have a problem complying with the officer's
    request. The ones who do most likely have a reason to shield their identity
    from the officer."

    Thank you,

    Sgt. Jill M. Bennett
    Michigan State Police
    Traffic Safety Division
    Traffic Services Section
    4000 Collins Road
    Lansing, MI 48909
    TX: 517-336-6121
    Fax: 517-336-6259
    bennettj14@michigan.gov



    It seems to me that Sgt. Bennett totally avoided answering the question. I sent a response back again asking for clarification. We'll see what kind of response I get. Does anyone interpret this response differently?


  2. #2
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    Typical cop answer "If you have nothing to hide then what's the problem?"

    The problem is that I value my privacy and you dont, officer.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Unfortunately in a traffic stop you are all detained so they do have the legal ability to ask for ID from everyone.

    I could be wrong ...though will have to research more when I get home from work.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    as a passenger, i think you do NOT have to give id, especially since you are not required to carry ID if you are not the driver.

    the driver might be angry if the passengers don't share their id with the officer upon request because an officer has the discretion to choose which laws to enforce and to what degree. When getting pulled over, for speeding as an example, if you were clocked at 82 in a 70, the officer has the discretion to decide how to write the ticket. Perhaps you would get off with a warning, or a ticket for 5 over had everyone complied. Non-compliance is a good excuse for the officer to write you a ticket for the full 12 mph over the speed limit.


    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    as a passenger, i think you do NOT have to give id, especially since you are not required to carry ID if you are not the driver.

    the driver might be angry if the passengers don't share their id with the officer upon request because an officer has the discretion to choose which laws to enforce and to what degree. When getting pulled over, for speeding as an example, if you were clocked at 82 in a 70, the officer has the discretion to decide how to write the ticket. Perhaps you would get off with a warning, or a ticket for 5 over had everyone complied. Non-compliance is a good excuse for the officer to write you a ticket for the full 12 mph over the speed limit.

    Wrong.

    All persons in a vehicle during a traffic stop are STOPPED.

  6. #6
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    the questions is not if everyone in the vehicle was not being stopped. All occupants ARE being stopped.

    Michigan is not a stop and ID state

    People are not required to carry ID in michigan unless they are driving a car, or carrying concealed. (ok, they're might be a couple other's, ie: when purchasing alcohol)

    The point is, to be a passenger in a car, you are not required to carry id, so you can't be required to produce something you are not required to carry.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #7
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    lapeer20m wrote:
    the questions is not if everyone in the vehicle was not being stopped. All occupants ARE being stopped.

    Michigan is not a stop and ID state

    People are not required to carry ID in michigan unless they are driving a car, or carrying concealed. (ok, they're might be a couple other's, ie: when purchasing alcohol)

    The point is, to be a passenger in a car, you are not required to carry id, so you can't be required to produce something you are not required to carry.
    I see your point!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  8. #8
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    lapeer20m wrote:
    the questions is not if everyone in the vehicle was not being stopped. All occupants ARE being stopped.

    Michigan is not a stop and ID state

    People are not required to carry ID in michigan unless they are driving a car, or carrying concealed. (ok, they're might be a couple other's, ie: when purchasing alcohol)

    The point is, to be a passenger in a car, you are not required to carry id, so you can't be required to produce something you are not required to carry.
    I see your point!
    That is basically how I view it. Still waiting for the follow-up response.

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    lapeer20m wrote:
    the questions is not if everyone in the vehicle was not being stopped. All occupants ARE being stopped.

    Michigan is not a stop and ID state

    People are not required to carry ID in michigan unless they are driving a car, or carrying concealed. (ok, they're might be a couple other's, ie: when purchasing alcohol)

    The point is, to be a passenger in a car, you are not required to carry id, so you can't be required to produce something you are not required to carry.
    I agree to all of this, at least to a point. I believe there are many factors that come into play once a vehicle has been stopped and what transpires during the stop. If for example, the officer is simply conducting a routine traffic stop, lets say for defective equipment with no other indication that a crime was, has, or will take place, then no ID's should be required from passengers. If, on the other hand, the stop turns into a Terry, then I think the officer can legally require ID. e.g. Officernotices green-leafy substances, residue, smells intoxicants, etc.

  10. #10
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    lapeer20m wrote:
    the questions is not if everyone in the vehicle was not being stopped. All occupants ARE being stopped.

    Michigan is not a stop and ID state

    People are not required to carry ID in michigan unless they are driving a car, or carrying concealed. (ok, they're might be a couple other's, ie: when purchasing alcohol)

    The point is, to be a passenger in a car, you are not required to carry id, so you can't be required to produce something you are not required to carry.
    I agree to all of this, at least to a point. I believe there are many factors that come into play once a vehicle has been stopped and what transpires during the stop. If for example, the officer is simply conducting a routine traffic stop, lets say for defective equipment with no other indication that a crime was, has, or will take place, then no ID's should be required from passengers. If, on the other hand, the stop turns into a Terry, then I think the officer can legally require ID. e.g. Officernotices green-leafy substances, residue, smells intoxicants, etc.
    I think you're correct. If the LEO has established a reason to suspect a crime (smell of weed), then I can see asking for ID's. But during a routine traffic stop, I would say no.

  11. #11
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    "Sorry Officer. I was unaware I was required to have a Passenger License for the state of Michigan."

    -Richard-

  12. #12
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    Outdoorsman wrote:
    I saw and responded to a statement on another thread about a guy who was involved in a traffic stop and the LEO asked for his girlfriend's/wife's (I can't remember which)ID. She was a passenger in the vehicle. I questioned the legality of this. Should a passenger of a vehicle have to hand over his/her ID???

    I sent my question to the Michigan State Police website and this is the response I received...



    "Thank you for your interest in traffic safety and for posting your question to
    the MSP website. It has been forwarded to my office for a response.

    If the person has broken a law, then they must provide identification to the
    officer. Most officers always ask (as did I) for identification from all
    passengers inside of the vehicle. This serves several purposes, foremost
    helping the officer to know who he is dealing with. Also, the person may have
    warrants and the officer is able to verify this with their identification.
    Generally, most people do not have a problem complying with the officer's
    request. The ones who do most likely have a reason to shield their identity
    from the officer."

    Thank you,

    Sgt. Jill M. Bennett
    Michigan State Police
    Traffic Safety Division
    Traffic Services Section
    4000 Collins Road
    Lansing, MI 48909
    TX: 517-336-6121
    Fax: 517-336-6259
    bennettj14@michigan.gov



    It seems to me that Sgt. Bennett totally avoided answering the question. I sent a response back again asking for clarification. We'll see what kind of response I get. Does anyone interpret this response differently?
    This is BS. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PROVIDE ID in Michigan. The onlytime you have to produce a DL if you are lawfully stopped while driving or are being lawfully detained and are carrying a concealed weapon and after you declare same the LEO asks to see your CPL and a Legal Michigan ID/or DL.

    You do not have to answer questions asked by a LEO as well. You have the right to remain silent.

    While the courts have ruled that all people in a vehicle that is stopped by a LEO are "detained" only the driver has to produce a DL, the passengers can refuse to produce ID as there is no obligation to by law in this state. You do not give up your rights by riding in a vehicle.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
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    Venator wrote:
    This is BS.¬* YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PROVIDE ID in Michigan.¬* The only¬*time you have to produce a DL if you are lawfully stopped while driving or are being lawfully detained and are carrying a concealed weapon and after you declare same the LEO asks to see your CPL and a Legal Michigan ID/or DL.

    You do not have to answer questions asked by a LEO as well.¬* You have the right to remain silent.

    While the courts have ruled that all people in a vehicle that is stopped by a LEO are "detained" only the driver has to produce a DL, the passengers can refuse to produce ID as there is no obligation to by law in this state.
    :celebrate it works but man they wanna bust your balls for doing so. leo used every form of getting me to give up mine. it ended after he threatened to take me "downtown" and i said do it then. i was the only one in the car that didn't surrender who i was that day.

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    dougwg wrote:
    lapeer20m wrote:
    as a passenger, i think you do NOT have to give id, especially since you are not required to carry ID if you are not the driver.

    the driver might be angry if the passengers don't share their id with the officer upon request because an officer has the discretion to choose which laws to enforce and to what degree. When getting pulled over, for speeding as an example, if you were clocked at 82 in a 70, the officer has the discretion to decide how to write the ticket. Perhaps you would get off with a warning, or a ticket for 5 over had everyone complied. Non-compliance is a good excuse for the officer to write you a ticket for the full 12 mph over the speed limit.

    Wrong.

    All persons in a vehicle during a traffic stop are STOPPED.
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?

  15. #15
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Aside from the limited circumstances which were already mentioned where carrying and showing ID is mandatory, whether or not an officer has the right to seize ID from a person doesn't generally have any bearing on whether or not that person needs to be carrying it.


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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    taxwhat wrote:
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?
    Which department?
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    taxwhat wrote:
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?"

    to me it would seem that they would probably shout get back in the car or taze you and arrest you for refusing an order.

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    DON'T TAZE ME, BRO!

    :celebrate

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?
    Which department?
    Exactly!!!

  20. #20
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    I am a criminal justice major and our textbooks say that once an officer turns his lights on the entire vehicle is technically considered under arrest and everyone in the vehicle is subject to producing some form if ID upon request. If a passenger doesn't have ID they must give their name and DOB. Nobody in the vehicle is free to leave until the officer is done with his duties or gives permission to do so.

  21. #21
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    I am a criminal justice major and our textbooks say that once an officer turns his lights on the entire vehicle is technically considered under arrest and everyone in the vehicle is subject to producing some form if ID upon request. If a passenger doesn't have ID they must give their name and DOB. Nobody in the vehicle is free to leave until the officer is done with his duties or gives permission to do so.
    Textbook, smeckbook! Provide a cite to the MCL!
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  22. #22
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    RenegadeMarine wrote:
    I am a criminal justice major and our textbooks say that once an officer turns his lights on the entire vehicle is technically considered under arrest and everyone in the vehicle is subject to producing some form if ID upon request. If a passenger doesn't have ID they must give their name and DOB. Nobody in the vehicle is free to leave until the officer is done with his duties or gives permission to do so.
    Textbook, smeckbook! Provide a cite to the MCL!
    I'm sorry, I saw a lot of people on this thread giving their personal opinions without citing MCL, so I figured that I would give my educated opinion on thematter. Should I refrain from doing this in the future?

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?
    Which department?
    Exactly!!!
    MSP

  24. #24
    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    I have not been able to find the MCL myself. Anyone else?

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    taxwhat wrote:
    Question : One is passenger .TS is for rolling stop sign [ no drugs,stolen property or such] .After stop and driver gives All proper ID toLEOthen asks for passenger for ID . And is told no Thank You Officer I am Late for work and must now walk. Then starts to walk away . Officer does What ?
    I would say it depends upon the circumstances, the individual officer (as well as the type of day he/she is having), and the agency/judge/PA/etc...



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