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Why confusion reigns in Seattle gun ban ruling

Bob Warden

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Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.
 

gogodawgs

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Bob Warden wrote:
Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.

Bob, first I support your rights to carry and to litigate. I am not so sure that your arguments have been as clear as SAF et al.

I think that after McDonald that your case will be remanded, but the real questions lie with which 'scrutiny' tests the court establishes.

Best of luck!
 

Bob Warden

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Kent, Washington, USA
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gogodawgs wrote:
Bob Warden wrote:
Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.

Bob, first I support your rights to carry and to litigate.  I am not so sure that your arguments have been as clear as SAF et al.

I think that after McDonald that your case will be remanded, but the real questions lie with which 'scrutiny' tests the court establishes.

Best of luck!

Agreed; strict scrutiny and I win, rational basis and I lose. Mid level will be interesting!
 

Ajetpilot

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SpyderTattoo wrote:
That was sure disrespectful... I don't understand where that is coming from.

I don't understand? What which one was disrespectful, Dave Workman's article, M1Gunr's post, or deanf's comment? And why?

Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to get the "disrespectful" thing. I better try to get more in touch with my feminine side.
 

gogodawgs

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Federal Way, Washington, USA
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Bob Warden wrote:
gogodawgs wrote:
Bob Warden wrote:
Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.

Bob, first I support your rights to carry and to litigate. I am not so sure that your arguments have been as clear as SAF et al.

I think that after McDonald that your case will be remanded, but the real questions lie with which 'scrutiny' tests the court establishes.

Best of luck!

Agreed; strict scrutiny and I win, rational basis and I lose. Mid level will be interesting!
Well the Supreme's are always very creative. I look forward to where they come out on this.
 

Bob Warden

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
192
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
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Ajetpilot wrote:
SpyderTattoo wrote:
That was sure disrespectful...    I don't understand where that is coming from. 

I don't understand?  What which one was disrespectful, Dave Workman's article, M1Gunr's post, or deanf's comment?  And why?

Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to get the "disrespectful" thing.  I better try to get more in touch with my feminine side.

Workman's article took a number of gratuitous pot shots at me that served no productive purpose, maybe that's what was seen as disrespectful?
 

joeroket

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Everett, Washington, USA
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Bob Warden wrote:
gogodawgs wrote:
Bob Warden wrote:
Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.

Bob, first I support your rights to carry and to litigate.  I am not so sure that your arguments have been as clear as SAF et al.

I think that after McDonald that your case will be remanded, but the real questions lie with which 'scrutiny' tests the court establishes.

Best of luck!

Agreed; strict scrutiny and I win, rational basis and I lose. Mid level will be interesting!

I think the fed judges would allow it pass strict scrutiny as well if you take some of the wording from Heller into play. A park where children frequent is not much different than a school, which heller has said is reasonable restriction.
 

Bob Warden

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Joined
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Location
Kent, Washington, USA
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joeroket wrote:
Bob Warden wrote:
gogodawgs wrote:
Bob Warden wrote:
Whether or not you support me or approve of my methods, I am spending my own time and money fighting for the right to bear arms for EVERYONE, not just for a state fortunate enough to have a strong state constitutional right and a preemption statute.

Bob, first I support your rights to carry and to litigate.  I am not so sure that your arguments have been as clear as SAF et al.

I think that after McDonald that your case will be remanded, but the real questions lie with which 'scrutiny' tests the court establishes.

Best of luck!

Agreed; strict scrutiny and I win, rational basis and I lose. Mid level will be interesting!

I think the fed judges would allow it pass strict scrutiny as well if you take some of the wording from Heller into play. A park where children frequent is not much different than a school, which heller has said is reasonable restriction.

We better all hope that SCOTUS is smart enough to realize that parks and park facilities that are generally open to everyone are a whole lot different than schools!
 

XD45PlusP

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Code:
Even the city recognizes this, which may explain why they will appeal Shaffer’s ruling on constitutional grounds, which were never claimed by the plaintiffs in that case.

A party on appeal is permitted to raise new issues of “manifest error affecting a constitutional right.”

As a general rule, courts will not consider issues raised for the first time on appeal. RAP 2.5(a). However, a claim of error may be raised for the first time on appeal if it is a "manifest error affecting a constitutional right". RAP 2.5(a)(3); 110 Wn.2d 682, 686-87, 757 P.2d 492 (1988); 67 Wn. App. 339, 342, 835 P.2d 251 (1992). As we recognized in Scott, constitutional errors are treated specially under RAP 2.5(a) because they often result in serious injustice to the accused and may adversely affect public perceptions of the fairness and integrity of judicial proceedings. Scott, 110 Wn.2d at 686-87. On the other hand, "permitting every possible constitutional error to be raised for the first time on appeal undermines the trial process, generates unnecessary appeals, creates undesirable retrials and is wasteful of the limited resources of prosecutors, public defenders and courts". Lynn, 67 Wn. App. at 344.

What Constitutional Right is the city claiming? This is the first time I have heard of a city in WA claiming a state, or federal constitutional right..... :shock::banghead::what:

I believe the Court of Appeals will either not hear, or will certify this case to the WA SC directly.

XD
 

Bob Warden

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joeroket wrote:
Ajetpilot wrote:
Nope, just finished it for the second time.  Seemed pretty factual to me.  I didn't see any pot shots.

Same here.

"Because Warden also brought the park ban’s legality into question under the state constitution, Pechman allowed herself to rule on the ban’s constitutionality under Article 1, Section 24. This is an area where some attorneys have privately suggested she should never have been tempted to go, but that the Warden lawsuit opened that door. She slammed it shut, thus giving Seattle a new ground on which to base its appeal of the SAF/NRA case."

False; a federal district judge ruling on state law has no precedential value of any kind on state courts.

"Warden has appealed Pechman’s ruling. His case may not move beyond that notice of appeal before the Second Amendment ruling on the Chicago gun ban case is decided by SCOTUS. At that point, it is likely his complaint becomes moot."

False; my complaint cannot be rendered moot - remember, I suffered actual harm.

"Warden was funding this out of his own pocket, and when he appealed to a gun rights forum last month for financial support, he got a rather chilly reception from several people. That is an irony in its own right, since on the same forum, for Open Carry activists, more than a few of them originally regarded Warden as the guy with the stronger case."

Gratuitously smug; a chilly reception from five people who would rather throw eggs from the sideline than risk anything themselves is to be expected.

"A week before Pechman issued her ruling Warden actually visited the SAF office and met privately with SAF Executive Vice President Alan Gottlieb. Perhaps it is a shame that meeting didn’t happen last fall, before Warden launched his federal lawsuit. There might have been a different outcome, or at least one that limited Pechman’s opinion to federal constitutional issues, where it belonged."

Alan invited me to visit to thank me for my help and cooperation in Chan! "where it belonged" is not factual reporting, either.
 

XD45PlusP

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Bob, that's why I am bringing up what I wrote in the post above yours.

Also, per state courts

Findings of fact must support conclusions of law.

Unchallenged findings of fact are verities on appeal.



XD
 

Bob Warden

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Kent, Washington, USA
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XD45PlusP wrote:
Bob, that's why I am bringing up what I wrote in the post above yours.

Also, per state courts

Findings of fact must support conclusions of law.

Unchallenged findings of fact are verities on appeal.

 

XD

The only facts at issue in my case, and in Chan, are not in dispute: We went to parks facilities and got turned away for carrying.

Everything else in both case opinions was nothing but legal conclusions. The only issue in Chan is and will forever be the state preemption statute.
 
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