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Thread: CPL and CCW what if found out? Illegal?

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    Good day gentlemen and women,

    I have been spending a few days reading from this forum and a few others trying to learn what I can. In particular, I am trying to find information about different hand guns for CCW. I currently received my CPL and am trying to make an informed decision of the purchase of two hand guns. I know and I have already read “buy a gun that you will carry, it does not good at home”, so without using that expression please.



    I use to carry for 16 years in Alaska on my homestead, but then I carried a 3 ½ inch 12 gauge or my 3 ½ inch 10 gauge filled with slugs. They both would draw to much attention here in Washington.



    So I a few questions the first question leads into the second. Having my CPL, if I am attempting to conceal my pistol with a t-shirt and a heavy shirt over top (or coat or sweater what have you). Lets say in doing this the pistol is covered 99.9% of the time besides if I bend down to tie my boots, at that point if my weapon shows am I in trouble did I brake the law? Would this be brandishing a weapon?



    For the record I am not a small skinny guy. I’m about 6’ tall and weigh 218 pounds so I can cover some things well. Here is the reason why I am asking this.



    In looking for what pistols I will buy I have been only looking at compact and sub compact pistols. Now I know the barrel length will affect the accuracy of the pistol. A 4 or 5 inch will be more accurate than a 3” given the same “Good” ammo and a skillful shooter. I know it is a balance between weapon size and what can be successfully hidden by the carrier. In my search for my two pistols I have been considering a Para Carry .45 CAP for a primary and a Para Carry 9 mm for a backup. The .45 either inside of jeans or carried under arm in a holster. The 9 mm on the ankle.



    Now this brings me to a few more questions. Should I be thinking about getting both weapons in the same caliber? AND … that can use the same magazine? ALSO… Should I consider looking at a full size 1911? My hand is comfortable with a grip of 1 ¼ to a slim 1 ½ width. And a handle of 3 ½ inch overall height handle with a 2 inch inside measurement.



    In speaking about caliber I do know if a man is shot in the head with a 9 MM hollow point he is not going to say much afterwards game over. So I am asking myself why am I considering a .45 caliber? I know I am a good shot, I also know I can improve through training (in that I am going to be taking) I have been trained in the Army but with a M-16, a 203 grenade launcher, 60 cal., 50 cal, LAW, 90 Cal., recoilless and so on but not with a pistol.



    That is where “The Firearms Academy of Seattle” comes in for me. Before I go there I would like to have my own guns so I can practice with them. I know that they teach a class on “Handgun Selection” in a perfect world I would go to that first but I live on a limited income from the V.A. from my disabilities. This is why I am asking for information from you all instead of taking the class. Either way I will be trying the gun (holding it) to see how it feels before I buy anything.



    I can’t help but think about the accuracy from a full size gun, but if my holster showing or telescoping through my shirt will get me a citation or worse I have to think twice about a full size gun. For me I feel a 3” barrel is just way to short, I don’t want lead flying all over and hitting innocent people. I also hope not to be so close that I can put the gun into their stomach or chest. So that alone makes me start to think about a pistol with a longer barrel.



    A. What is the shortest barrel length advised?

    B. Should I look at buying two guns in the same caliber that exchange magazines?

    C. Should I conceder buying a full size pistol and then also a smaller in the same caliber?

    D. I am confident a 9 mm will stop a person with a head shot, should I use that cal. Or think bigger?

    E. Should I just only conceder a .45 CAP?



    I know I am an above average shooter, I have shot pistols many times hunting in Alaska but I was never trained. I still consider myself better than the average guy BUT not better than some of the men on this board, not at all. That is why I am asking you all for your opinion. If your wondering would I freeze in a situation or would I pull the trigger if needed. There is not question given the right circumstances I would not hesitate. For the record, what does that mean? An example would be if I was in the bank and a man is robbing the bank and starts shooting the bank tellers I would then stop him. It would need to be a situation like that, I would not be trigger happy but I will not let a bad guy screw up someones day so they can get there drug money.

    Rick

    P.S. Please be nice but any constructive consideration given will be researched by me very much. All opinions will be listened to and researched. But I’m really do not want to start an arguments.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    jcsftwre wrote:
    Good day gentlemen and women,

    I have been spending a few days reading from this forum and a few others trying to learn what I can. In particular, I am trying to find information about different hand guns for CCW. I currently received my CPL and am trying to make an informed decision of the purchase of two hand guns. I know and I have already read “buy a gun that you will carry, it does not good at home”, so without using that expression please.

    Welcome to OCDO, remember this is an open carry forum.

    I use to carry for 16 years in Alaska on my homestead, but then I carried a 3 ½ inch 12 gauge or my 3 ½ inch 10 gauge filled with slugs. They both would draw to much attention here in Washington.

    Yes they would and I think they are inappropriate to be carried off of your property unless you are in the woods.

    So I a few questions the first question leads into the second. Having my CPL, if I am attempting to conceal my pistol with a t-shirt and a heavy shirt over top (or coat or sweater what have you). Lets say in doing this the pistol is covered 99.9% of the time besides if I bend down to tie my boots, at that point if my weapon shows am I in trouble did I brake the law? Would this be brandishing a weapon?

    No that is not brandishing. You have to be warranting alarm, reaching for it, with intent lifting your shirt to intimidate another.

    For the record I am not a small skinny guy. I’m about 6’ tall and weigh 218 pounds so I can cover some things well. Here is the reason why I am asking this.



    In looking for what pistols I will buy I have been only looking at compact and sub compact pistols. Now I know the barrel length will affect the accuracy of the pistol. A 4 or 5 inch will be more accurate than a 3” given the same “Good” ammo and a skillful shooter. I know it is a balance between weapon size and what can be successfully hidden by the carrier. In my search for my two pistols I have been considering a Para Carry .45 CAP for a primary and a Para Carry 9 mm for a backup. The .45 either inside of jeans or carried under arm in a holster. The 9 mm on the ankle.

    Remember this is a pro open carry website. I carry a Sig229 .40 and generallyOC this firearm unless it is raining and need to wear a coat. I do have firearms I conceal and they are of a smaller caliber and for close quarters self defense. Most confrontations of self defense will be at less than 7 to 10 yards. Range time would be your friend.

    Now this brings me to a few more questions. Should I be thinking about getting both weapons in the same caliber? AND … that can use the same magazine? ALSO… Should I consider looking at a full size 1911? My hand is comfortable with a grip of 1 ¼ to a slim 1 ½ width. And a handle of 3 ½ inch overall height handle with a 2 inch inside measurement.

    You should carry what you are comfortable with.

    In speaking about caliber I do know if a man is shot in the head with a 9 MM hollow point he is not going to say much afterwards game over. So I am asking myself why am I considering a .45 caliber? I know I am a good shot, I also know I can improve through training (in that I am going to be taking) I have been trained in the Army but with a M-16, a 203 grenade launcher, 60 cal., 50 cal, LAW, 90 Cal., recoilless and so on but not with a pistol.

    Training and practice are good.

    That is where “The Firearms Academy of Seattle” comes in for me. Before I go there I would like to have my own guns so I can practice with them. I know that they teach a class on “Handgun Selection” in a perfect world I would go to that first but I live on a limited income from the V.A. from my disabilities. This is why I am asking for information from you all instead of taking the class. Either way I will be trying the gun (holding it) to see how it feels before I buy anything.



    I can’t help but think about the accuracy from a full size gun, but if my holster showing or telescoping through my shirt will get me a citation or worse I have to think twice about a full size gun. For me I feel a 3” barrel is just way to short, I don’t want lead flying all over and hitting innocent people. I also hope not to be so close that I can put the gun into their stomach or chest. So that alone makes me start to think about a pistol with a longer barrel.

    You won't get a citiation. Join us on the Washington State forum page and read the FAQs and download the phamplet

    A. What is the shortest barrel length advised? personal choice, I have from 4' to 2'

    B. Should I look at buying two guns in the same caliber that exchange magazines? personally .....no

    C. Should I conceder buying a full size pistol and then also a smaller in the same caliber? again personal choice, but some do this

    D. I am confident a 9 mm will stop a person with a head shot, should I use that cal. Or think bigger? personal choice, I have a .40 as my primary firearm, but also carry a .32auto as a BUG from time to time

    E. Should I just only conceder a .45 CAP?



    I know I am an above average shooter, I have shot pistols many times hunting in Alaska but I was never trained. I still consider myself better than the average guy BUT not better than some of the men on this board, not at all. That is why I am asking you all for your opinion. If your wondering would I freeze in a situation or would I pull the trigger if needed. There is not question given the right circumstances I would not hesitate. For the record, what does that mean? An example would be if I was in the bank and a man is robbing the bank and starts shooting the bank tellers I would then stop him. It would need to be a situation like that, I would not be trigger happy but I will not let a bad guy screw up someones day so they can get there drug money.

    Rick

    P.S. Please be nice but any constructive consideration given will be researched by me very much. All opinions will be listened to and researched. But I’m really do not want to start an arguments.
    Welcome and join us here:

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  3. #3
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    Always a hard choice.

    The limiting factor is absolutely how much money you have budgeted?

    Two gun or one? First, start off with one gun. You can get your back up gun (BUG) after you have taken the first step.

    Advantages: saves on ammo as you can buy in bulk

    Disadvantages: limited on caliber if your a big follower on nothing but a 45 ACP....

    Lots of choices to choose from - it's not like 20-30 years ago where "compact" sizes were limited. You can get almost any caliber in various size frames now.

    a. what is the shortest? 3 - 3 1/2 inch but again it depends on the make and model you choose.

    b. two or one? See above

    c. Full size and then compact later? So, this goes back to the advantages of staying in the same caliber. Now days you can get about the same model in different calibers too. Just to add to the confusion.

    d. confident with 9mm? Then stay with it. Most like the softer recoil, higher magazine capacity, etc of the 9mm. Shot placement is key.

    e. 45 ACP? Don't judge your man hood on a smaller caliber (9mm). As mentioned above it's best to place those shots on target. A miss in any caliber is a miss.



    It's strongly advised you go to a indoor range that rents pistols and try out the whole case if you can. There's lots to choose from and they come in all sizes and calibers. Invest some of your money in taking some time - it'll cost you about $80 - $150 depending in how much you shoot and how many guns you try.

    Find out what works for you, feels good in the hand, one you can shoot effectively and meets your budget needs and other considerations (e.g. conceal use or range use, etc).

    The next is to take a course and as you mentioned it sounds like you have one planned - good.

    You can't practice without being trained. It's advisable you get some good instruction as pistols are a totally different ballgame compared to what they teach in the Army (M4/M16 depending when you served).

    I usually tell folks to budget about $800-1500 on a new gun. This includes, firearm, case of ammo, holster, extra magazines, cleaningstuff, day at range before you buy and some instruction. It varies as to the cost of your firearm you are thinking about and ammo cost but it's a ball park to work with.

    If you ever get interested in Shooting on the Move. Do a search on "Shooting Like the Good Old Days - Shooting on the Move" and oldkim

    You can see me when you are done taking the class. I'll open your eyes to a whole different side to shooting a pistol.

    Have fun with your new toy!
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
    NRA Certified Instructor (pistol)
    NRA Range Safety Officer

    www.shootonthemove.org

    "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport!"
    Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA

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    Thanks guys, and thank gogodawgs I know this is a Open Carry site and what ever gun I do get will be the one that I open carry when I do. I posted here as I was not getting mush info on another board. When my money is no longer tied up in May I will have about $1,200 on a gun unless a settlement pans out on my disabilities then I will have up to $28,000.00 but will not need that at all for a gun. But about $3,000 of that will be spent on training.

    Shoot on Open Carry I could very easily be comfortable with a 454 Casull. Not having to hid it, one could find a comfortable holster for almost anything.

    There will be time I carry concealed and some times Open in support of you guys. and situation.

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    jcsftwre wrote:
    ....
    Shoot on Open Carry I could very easily be comfortable with a 454 Casull. Not having to hid it, one could find a comfortable holster for almost anything.

    There will be time I carry concealed and some times Open in support of you guys. and situation.
    It's pretty much accepted these days that with modern defensive ammunition, anything from 9mm on up can be an effective threat stopper. Get a weapon that you can control in a variety of situations with either hand and that you will practice with.

    Dave
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

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    davegran wrote:
    jcsftwre wrote:
    ....
    Shoot on Open Carry I could very easily be comfortable with a 454 Casull. Not having to hid it, one could find a comfortable holster for almost anything.

    There will be time I carry concealed and some times Open in support of you guys. and situation.
    It's pretty much accepted these days that with modern defensive ammunition, anything from 9mm on up can be an effective threat stopper. Get a weapon that you can control in a variety of situations with either hand and that you will practice with.

    Dave
    Good advice Dave, I have thought about being able to shoot with my left hand as some time may come when I need to.

    When I was very young I broke my left arm 2 times in a row. (back in the 60's) Back when they use to keep you in the hospital for a broken bone. I spent three months in the hospital only to get out a brake the same arm only a fraction of an inch from the first. My arm was in a cast for more than 6 months.

    Since then my left arm has been very uncoordinated. I know as soon as I get what ever gun I get I'll need to shoot a lot and often left handed. I think about that a lot. I know if I tried to shoot a .45 left handed the gun would fly out of my hand.

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    jcsftwre wrote
    Good advice Dave, I have thought about being able to shoot with my left hand as some time may come when I need to.

    I know if I tried to shoot a .45 left handed the gun would fly out of my hand.
    Might be a good reason to consider a 9mm. One thing that helped me get the shooting muscles in shape for IDPA competition was dry firing with snap caps. My 9mm, a Smith & Wesson SW99, is DA on the first trigger pull and SA after the first shot. By loading a snap cap, I am able to draw and dry fire as many DA shots as I want to; sorta like weight lifting for your trigger finger.... Also, by maintaining your sight picture while dry firing, you can develop a straight-line trigger pull to help stay on target.

    This link will take you to a good article on why IDPA competition can be helpful.

    http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...g/idpa_092905/

    Dave
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Dave thanks for the info about training I do have that one figured out. There is a FAS Tactical Training range called The Firearms Academy of Seattle. Inc. The range is about 45 miles south east of me. Also I originally was thinking of two 9 mm guns. I believed that I got sawed by the comments “That’s not big enough.” But I still know that a 9 mm in the head or heart will stop most all but a bear (black or brown don’t matter) I haven’t bought my guns yet for two reasons the first is that I’m still researching and the second is that I’m still paying off a mechanics bill. I’ll be done the end of April. Once I read about a person should be able to shoot with either hand the first thing I thought was that a .45 would be to big. I know from a few other times trying to pull a trigger with my left hand it seems to tilt to the left while I pull. I loose my sight picture. I never did end up shooting then, that was not my point pulling the trigger was what I was wondering about. I just know for a fact a larger cal. Gun shot from my left hand would be a sad sight. I do need to strengthen that arm and hand for this reason.
    Rick
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    Dave you may be 10 miles from anywhere at least your not 350 miles from everywhere like Iowa City is. I lived there for 7 years, nothing to do there.

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    Just want to reiterate that you will not feel undergunned with a 9mm. That's what I shoot, and as has been said with modern SD ammo, anything 9 and up is going to be good (after all there is only a 2mm difference between 9mm and .45). That said, my next handgun will be a .45. Why? Because I already have a 9 and an not a big fan of the .40- nothing wrong with it, I just don't like it- no other reason. And that's the moral of the story- shoot what you like and what you're comfortable with, but the bottom line is BE ARMED!

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    Dahwg, Thanks for chiming in! I take everyone’s advice and think about it very hard. That’s how people learn things. Depending on what is said I may start doing searches and reading for several hours. I really have always leaned to a 9 mm cheaper ammo = more shooting for me. I live on a limited budget via Uncle Sam. I also give thought to this, for a very long time the police carried a 9 mm that must say something about the caliber. I know with out a doubt I am not the smartest when it comes to pistols. I have never been formally trained either in the Army or otherwise. Shotguns, M16’s and in general most explosives .. well that is another matter.
    While I read from the comments I also try to find out who is writing what I’m reading. If it happens to be an instructor I give more credence to what is said. (No disrespect here) but if it is written by an 18 year old that lives in Detroit or Chicago well then it all depends on what gang they come from! (just kidding).
    I just hear so many times that a 9 mm is not big enough but I know myself if the round is properly placed in the body most all will stop. If not then keep shooting.

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    If you hit your target, a .22 will kill, stop or otherwise allow you to go home at the end of the day. Shot placement is key, of course that is compounded by adreneline if you are ever in the situation of having to deploy your firearm for self defense.

    I have for years carried a .380 and a .32 as they are easily concealable even in the warmest of conditions. I still have my .32 (Keltec P32) with me everyday. It is so light and easy to conceal that it is a must and a bare minimum of my daily routine. It is a close quarters gun and it is better than no gun, it is reliable and accurate. I have had the gun for 10 years and I have not every had it fail. Recently I took it to the range after not having fired or cleaned it for 2 years. It performed perfectly and hit the target at 7 yards everytime.

    I have also carried and in the last 6 months OC my .40 Sig229. (I also could convert to .357Sig and be able to add 2 rounds to the same magazine) I can conceal this gun with a jacket if I prefer, but it is much easier to OC. Sig makes this same firearm in 9mm. The reason I prefer this firearm to carry every single day is because it is the most reliable firearm I coul find. The US Coast Guard did a 3,000,000 (3 million) round torture test with this firearm without issue! The US Secret Service did a 2,000,000 (2 million) round torture test with this firearm without issue! Many other federal agencies also conducted torture tests with this firearm and it is the choice of many federal agencies. It simply goes bang every single time. If it is good enough to protect POTUS then it is good enough to protect myself and my loved ones. Now it is a bit more expensive and there are many reliable guns for less, I chose this for the reasons I have stated.

    As you can see, I don't get caught up in the caliber wars I carry a small gun and a big gun. I am concerned that a firearm does not jam and is accurate. I also believe that I am comfortable with the firearm and you should be comfortable with what you pick. Go to a range and rent all of there handguns and borrow from friends. I always offer those who I shoot with if they want to shoot one of my guns.

    Good luck!
    Live Free or Die!

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    jcsftwre wrote:
    ....
    While I read from the comments I also try to find out who is writing what I’m reading. If it happens to be an instructor I give more credence to what is said.....
    I just hear so many times that a 9 mm is not big enough but I know myself if the round is properly placed in the body most all will stop. If not then keep shooting.
    Two years ago I took a class called "Tactical Anatomy" (http://www.tacticalanatomy.com/) put on by an Emergency Room physician who normally teaches the principles to LE. In the class, you learn to visualize the internal organs of the bad guy in three dimensions to better deliver a stop shot.

    After seeing first hand in the ER what different calibers can do, plus reading many reports on the subject, he was of the opinion that any modern SD ammo of 9mm or larger would be effective. That is where I got my information.

    Dave
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Dave,
    Sorry but what do you mean SD ammo? I'm new to this board and don't know all of the acronyms. And taking a class on anatomy would be a very smart thing to do to help to know where the vital organs are.

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    jcsftwre wrote:
    Dave,
    Sorry but what do you mean SD ammo? I'm new to this board and don't know all of the acronyms. And taking a class on anatomy would be a very smart thing to do to help to know where the vital organs are.
    SD = Self defense


    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    A. What is the shortest barrel length advised? I carry a 4.3" in about the 5:00 position. Your carry position is going to affect the answer which applies to you though. Mine is canted over about 45-50 degrees (SOB) and, since it is on my back the barrel length is less of a concern (for me). Your mileage may vary but I suspect if you carry vertical it will be a bi awkward depending on the size of your hip.

    B. Should I look at buying two guns in the same caliber that exchange magazines? Someone else suggested you concentrate on the first one and I agree with that thought. If you go to a BUG for regular carry in the future, you'll make a more informed decision after your training and experiences with carry.

    Interchangeable mags are probably not going to happen if you stay at or above 9mm but one thought occurs to me on this. Your BUG is your BU gun, not your primary. It's for when you either lose or exhaust ammo on the primary. If you're thinking you'll be needing more than that "last ditch" load, maybe you should just slip another mag of your primary carry into a different pocket?

    That said, my wife and I carry slightly different models with interchangeable mags for what I am sure is the same reason you were thinking about on your two. For my BUG though, it's a completely different caliber and manufacturer.

    C. Should I conceder buying a full size pistol and then also a smaller in the same caliber?I have my preferred carry and several alternates. All of them I trust completely, just a couple of them are slightly more comfortable with or fit certain holsters better. Also, I don't OC the same weapon I CC.

    D. I am confident a 9 mm will stop a person with a head shot, should I use that cal. Or think bigger?Anything above 9 with good SD ammor will be fine, my wife and I both carry .40's but you use whatyoufind to be the most reliable for your accuracy and situation.

    E. Should I just only conceder a .45 CAP? My opinion, NO. Consider all the calibers and pick what works best FOR YOU.

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    Hi jcsftwre

    Welcome to the group! Nice two-wheeler!

    I see that others have given good info to the questions you asked. However, some of the questions are so personal, there is no way to answer them for someone else ... not a cop out, but just fact.

    One that I would like to bring up is that no matter what you choose now, you will more than likely be looking for another gun by this time next year ... that is just the way it goes ... you get a gun, you start shooting regularly, you take a class or two, and next thing you know, you got it bad

    As for caliber, well, as stated, the performance ammo that is available will balance out some of the differences in caliber.

    What I would suggest is to try and find a gun store that has a firing range where they will let you test fire different weapons/calibers. This will give you an idea of where you want to go with your acquisitions.

    I regularly carry a Kimber Ultra Concealed Carry II in .45 which has a ~4" barrel (top gun in my pix). I also regularly shoot a CZ 75B which is similar to a full size 1911. Accuracy with either pistol comes with practice. The barrel length really doesn't come in to the picture.

    Whatever you choose to carry, be sure that you are proficient with it and that you are comfortable with it's action.

    Have a great time!
    cheers - okboomer
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    Hey everyone thanks for all of the good information and all of the things to think about. I have been given about 7 things to think about that was brought up by these posts. It still will be a little while before I buy a gun to carry. I know this is an OC board but you guys tend to give more information freely and give me things to think about. (I will mostly be concealed) I see the person everyday that has given me the reason to carry. (The gang banger meth dealer) One thing that is on my side is I love to study and right now I have been learning a lot about hand guns. Thanks for all of the information.
    P.S. I do have a .22 Single six pistol that I have owned since living in Alaska. But it is way to small in Cal. for me to feel safe. Still better than a kick in the butt.
    Edit to say thanks: okboomer thanks about the bike!

  18. #18
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    to the original poster:

    for what it's worth, try looking at the beretta PX4 line. the PX4 comes in fullsize and subcompact, and nearly ALL the parts are interchangeable between the 2. just as a funny and (in my opinion) extreme example, the subcompact will accept the fullsize magazine. now buy the fullsize extended magazine, and you have a subcompact with somewhere around 30rounds. LOL

    my wife just purchased a PX4 storm subcompact as her first handgun. it's a little thicker than other subcompacts, but i have noticed that while it is fairly easy to conceal, it's still large enough to open carry. it comes in several caliber options, but went with the 9mm. my choice for 9mm is availability and price. 9mm is one of the cheapest "large caliber" rounds that i have found in my area, and available at just about any store. and with it being cheaper, i can afford to practice more than i would with a caliber that cost 2-3x as much.

    here is a link to a thread i made about our new PX4 storm subcompact.
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/39607.html

    PS: yes i have noticed that at first handling, it doesn't seem to be as accurate as my CZ82. the only real difference as you can see in the pictures in the link i posted above is the barrel lenght. BUT......after shooting it a bit, we noticed that we just had to START PRACTICING at a closer distance until we got a proper feel for how that gun handled. then once we figured out how that gun handled, then start working our way out to better distances. unfortunately we haven't gotten much practice time since we got it because we've all been sick the last couple of weeks, but we immediately noticed that it wasn't so much the gun, as it was the way we handled it. otherwise as far as reviews go, i've read mostly good reviews about the gun as a whole, and also very good reviews about it's accuracy compared to other subcompacts.

  19. #19
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    Feb 2010
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    scorpio_vette
    Thanks I am looking up the link right now and I will read up on that Pistol. At first and even still I lean to a 9 mm for the same reason. If it cost less to shoot I’ll be able to practice more. I have seen that they do make some pretty impressive round for a 9 mm.
    Any comment like this is appreciated.
    Rick

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