Belle Meade Open Carry-Kwikrnu Drama

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What Kwik has done is misinterpret state statute and also a city ordinance into thinking that, even with a TN handgun carry permit, he must carry his LOADEDhandgun in Belle Meade openly in the hand. That is furthest from the truth. I live in Tennessee and that is total garbage. That is an old state law that is no longer on the books.

Who did Kwik get his interpretation from that the only way to LEGALLY carry a handgun WITH a handgun carry permit in Belle Meade town limits is loaded in the hand in the open?

Is KWIK an attorney licensed in Tennesse?

Did KWIK get legal counsel from an attorney licensed in Tennessee before pulling this stunt?

I'm going to bet that NO is the answer to all three questions. I have lived in a town with such a same funny ordinance in West TN. TN is not like Illinois where you cannot have a handgun in Chicago. You may carry your handgun, with a permit, in Nashville, Chattanooga, Memphis, Brentwood, Franklin, Germantown, etc. Now...where ordinances do come in is parks and municpal type property. Towns do not have to post parks'properly' if they had a town ordinance forbidding firearms on the books before 1986. Those ordinances are legal as long as not modified after 1986....after that they are null and void and state law takes precedence.Brentwood, for example, cannot prohibit carrying ofhandguns, with a permit, in the whole city with some old city ordinance...go ask aTN attorney if you are in doubt.Or you can believe some guy who getshis permit suspended (it takes a lot to get a permit here suspended for being dumb...b/c it is 'shall issue' )fordoing something REAL DUMB in public and puts others in danger...it is your choice.

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Spanky wrote:

Slow,

You missed the point, it's not about the author or that book, it's about the TITLE common sense and the lack of on Leotard's part.

Nice attempt though!

However, it is quite commical you actually took the time to look up that particular book and post a brief summary. You and Leo should start a wolf pack.

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If you had read any portion of the book, you would realize it is far more in line with Leonards rights, than with your whining discomfort of other peoples strict adherence to law.

Cry about it Spanky. Whine about it profusely. Then when "the man" comes for your firearms with no legal basis for doing so, I will sit back and laugh.

Too stupid to realize exactly what the term "equality means". That's a shame.

Razor, he has stated repeatedly that he sought legal counsel. If it is true, then I am sure he is far more filled in to the specifics of his situation than you are. it is laughably ignorant to state that he was a "danger to society" when he never could even be remotely arrested for ANYTHING, and was in full compliance of all laws.

I am going to start emailing the Brady Foundation all of the posts that are in blatant support of their ideologies. I didn't last time, I merely used it as a point to get you people to realize how stupid and fear laden some of your statements were.

This time I'll go ahead and give them some intellectual, abstract thinking to back up the statements made here.

This should keep you guys occupied.

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cannibalism sure is rampant nowadays.

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Well, see, that's the problem with Kwiks antics. I AIN'T ONE OF HIM and, unlike him, I am a responsible, safe,gun owner and am offended by being put on the same planet as him. When I am legally and peacable carrying I don't want some cop saying "Hey, there goes some gun wierdo like that guy in Michigan." I don't want my town thinking "We need to prohibit open carring before we end up with anut like Belle Meade has."

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Anthony_I_Am wrote:

...When I am legally and peacable carrying I don't want some cop saying "Hey, there goes some gun wierdo like that guy in Michigan." I don't want my town thinking "We need to prohibit open carring before we end up with anut like Belle Meade has."

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Some people already think that. What part of this do you not understand?

The guy New Mexico who carried into a movie theater?
Yeah. Irresponsible. Gun Flasher. Created needless hysteria.

Ed Peruta? He doesn't need a CCW, and the Sheriffs Department is absolutely right in being able to indiscriminately deny permit issuance.

Theseus? Guns and schools? What WAS he thinking? Yeah right,...he "didn't know" that school was there,...right?

People don't need to carry guns around Anthony,...didn't you see the officers in Lakewood? They had ninja-pro super FBI laced awesomeness and .454 Casull sidearms with radar detectors.
Civilians don't need firearms, especially AK47 semi-automatic assault rifle pistols that can fire 3000 rounds per minute with bullets that don't miss, and 400 round magazines!

kimberguy? Why would he ride on a freaking motorcycle with a sidearm (A military spec 1911 at that!) on his hip? What was he going to do, shoot cars?


All of these are examples of senseless acts for which the law was well within their right to go above and beyond the constraints in the Constitution, with the meaningful and well-reasoned excuse of "common sense".

Sometimes, you just can't have people exercising their rights, and following the law to the letter. That would be bad! Woe is the day they dare offend your precious insecurity derived from fear of the antis by practicing the right to bear arms to the stressed extent of the law right?

Some of you guys create so much senseless hyperbole, and waste deteriorating braincells in the process, never to regain them for another meaningful thought.

Somebody throw kwik up on the spit and stick an apple in his mouth. By time we are done with the ceremonial cannibal dance, the meat should be nice and tender.

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AND THE DRAMA CONTINUES......

http://politics.nashvillepost.com/2010/03/16/belle-meade-to-outlaw-carrying-handguns/

On Wednesday, March 17, the Belle Meade Board of Commissioners will consider a proposed ordinance (Ordinance 2010-2) that would forbid any person with a handgun carry permit to carry within the city limits.

Not only does this legislation create a victim zone inside Belle Meade by disarming law-abiding citizens, it is also a clear violation of Tennessee’s preemption statutes.

The Board of Commissioners will meet at 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday at the Belle Meade City Hall located at 4705 Harding Road.



Talk about adding to the anti-fire......I wonder why they came up with that proposed bill?

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AND ON THE OTHER SIDE.....

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/mayor-dispels-rumor-about-belle-meade-gun-ban

Mayor dispels rumor about Belle Meade gun ban
Wednesday, March 17, 2010 at 12:33am
By Sherry Phillips

After a gun rights activist walked down a Belle Meade street with a loaded pistol in his hand, the city decided it needed to clean up an outdated law on its books.

But the change has stirred a wave of opposition from gun rights groups including the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action which made a post Tuesday on its website that claimed the city was trying to ban guns.

“Not only does this legislation create a victim zone inside Belle Meade by disarming law-abiding citizens, it is also a clear violation of Tennessee’s preemption statutes,” the post read in part.

The NRA-ILA urged citizens to voice opposition to an ordinance on the Wednesday city commission agenda.

“There is a rumor going around that we are going to ban handguns, guns in the city,” said Mayor Gray Thornburg.

She said the rumor is a “complete misunderstanding.” The city is merely realigning their ordinance to be in line with state regulations.

“I know that a whole bunch of people in Belle Meade own guns, and I’m sure that there are plenty who have permits to carry,” she said. “They are absolutely right. I wouldn’t violate somebody’s Second Amendment right by banning guns.”

The current Belle Meade municipal code includes a section on firearms and weapons that says “it is unlawful for any person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed and razor, dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knuckles, pistol, revolver or any other dangerous weapon or instrument…”

It also includes the phrase “except the army or navy pistol which shall be carried openly in the hand.”

The new ordinance deletes the exception that would include the Navy black powder pistol Leonard Embody carried when he walked down Belle Meade Boulevard in mid-February.

Embody, who is active on many gun rights blogs, first gained attention in December when he brandished a loaded AK-47 pistol at Radnor Lake State Park. At the time, he said he would continue to carry — to test the state’s laws. On several blogs, he said he would go to Bicentennial Mall and to Belle Meade.

“As you probably know, he came into the city [with a Navy model 1851 black powder pistol] basically forcing our hand on the law,” Thornburg said. “The police were expecting him to come, we were expecting him to push buttons.”

She said Embody found a loophole in the law that allowed him to carry the military-style weapon, and the city is amending the law to take off the out of date exemption.

“That’s all we are doing,” Thornburg said. “We’re deleting that particular part which is very, very old. Historically, everybody had that in there.”

Thornburg said the law should have been taken off the books years ago, but likened finding outdated laws to searching for a needle in a haystack.

“We do this on a routine basis,” she said. “Every time a state building code gets changed, we change. When you’re made aware of an ordinance that’s not correct you change it. And that’s really all that we’re doing.”

The ordinance will be before the commission Wednesday on second and final reading. Commissioners can either approve it or defer it, if they think there are too many questions that need to be answered.

“This one, I don’t know,” Thornburg said. “There hasn’t been any conversation on it, but I promise you we have been bombarded with emails.”

Hmmm.....what to believe?

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Gee kwik.....The impression I'm getting is that you might have had better luck TALKING to the Belle Meade city council about the conflict with their outdated ordinance.

Instead, you stirred up a hornets nest of legal trouble, not only for the town of Belle Meade, but for yourself as well.

This is what we all were trying to get across to you.

Do you get it now???

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So, now, instead of "clearing an old law off the books," as the city attempts to claim, they are (as the NRA points out) removing the only exception that allows any carry of a firearm?

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razorback2003 wrote:

What Kwik has done is misinterpret state statute and also a city ordinance into thinking that, even with a TN handgun carry permit, he must carry his LOADEDhandgun in Belle Meade openly in the hand. That is furthest from the truth. I live in Tennessee and that is total garbage. That is an old state law that is no longer on the books.

Who did Kwik get his interpretation from that the only way to LEGALLY carry a handgun WITH a handgun carry permit in Belle Meade town limits is loaded in the hand in the open?

Is KWIK an attorney licensed in Tennesse?

Did KWIK get legal counsel from an attorney licensed in Tennessee before pulling this stunt?

I'm going to bet that NO is the answer to all three questions. I have lived in a town with such a same funny ordinance in West TN. TN is not like Illinois where you cannot have a handgun in Chicago. You may carry your handgun, with a permit, in Nashville, Chattanooga, Memphis, Brentwood, Franklin, Germantown, etc. Now...where ordinances do come in is parks and municpal type property. Towns do not have to post parks'properly' if they had a town ordinance forbidding firearms on the books before 1986. Those ordinances are legal as long as not modified after 1986....after that they are null and void and state law takes precedence.Brentwood, for example, cannot prohibit carrying ofhandguns, with a permit, in the whole city with some old city ordinance...go ask aTN attorney if you are in doubt.Or you can believe some guy who getshis permit suspended (it takes a lot to get a permit here suspended for being dumb...b/c it is 'shall issue' )fordoing something REAL DUMB in public and puts others in danger...it is your choice.

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I can only answer the question I highlighted in red....This is the ordinance that kwik was "challenging".

http://www.mtas.tennessee.edu/public/municodesweb.nsf/5cde681dbdedc10f8525664000615fc4/aaa96e3396abcd838525693e0065a226?OpenDocument......Title 11, Chapter 6-02

[align=left]11-602. Weapons and firearms generally. It shall be unlawful for any[/align]
[align=left]person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor,[/align]
[align=left]dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knucks, pistol, revolver, or any other dangerous[/align]
[align=left]weapon or instrument except the army or navy pistol which shall be carried[/align]
[align=left]openly in the hand. However, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply to[/align]
[align=left]members of the United States Armed Forces carrying such weapons as are[/align]
[align=left]prescribed by applicable regulations nor to any officer or policeman engaged in[/align]
[align=left]his official duties, in the execution of process, or while searching for or engaged[/align]
[align=left]in arresting persons suspected of having committed crimes. Furthermore, the[/align]
[align=left]prohibition shall not apply to persons who may have been summoned by such[/align]
[align=left]officer or policeman to assist in the discharge of his said duties. (Ord. 71-6,[/align]
§ 2.12. 1987 Code, § 10-212)

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Their current law as written is valid. People have been prosecuted under the army navy in a hand law in Tennessee. The law was in effect before April 8, 1986 so State law does not preempt TCA 39-17-1314(a). It was amended slightly in 1987, but that doesn't mean the ordinance took effect after April 8, 1986. Laws are considered in effect from the date of inception unless they are changed substancially.

As far as the city taking my adviceinto account. I have already gave them information that their new law is unconstitutional. It was declared unconstitutional in Andrews v State in 1871 and Glasscock v Chattanooga in 1928 both are TN Supreme Court decisions. In Tennessee the State Constitution does not allow for a prohibition of handguns, only the regulation.


Belle Meade should repeal the entire ordinance and enforce State Law as it is written.


You're right I'm not an attorney. IANAL.

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razorback2003 wrote:

Now...where ordinances do come in is parks and municpal type property. Towns do not have to post parks'properly' if they had a town ordinance forbidding firearms on the books before 1986. Those ordinances are legal as long as not modified after 1986....after that they are null and void and state law takes precedence.

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You're wrong.

TCA 39-17-1314 applies to ANY law, and isnot limited to parks laws.

"Except as provided in 39-17-1311(d), which allows

counties and municipalities to prohibit the possession of

handguns while within or on a public park, natural area,

historic park, nature trail, campground, forest,greenway,

waterway, or other similar public place that is owned or

operated by a county, a municipality, or instrumentality

thereof, no city, county or metropolitan government

shall occupy any part of the field of regulation of the

transfer, ownership, possession, or transportation of

firearms, ammunition or components of firearms or

combinations thereof; provided, that the provisions of

this section shall be prospective only and shall not

affect the validity of any ordinance or resolution

lawfully enacted before April 8, 1986."

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wrightme wrote:

So, now, instead of "clearing an old law off the books," as the city attempts to claim, they are (as the NRA points out) removing the only exception that allows any carry of a firearm?

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The exception only allows for carry of the Army or Navy pistol, in hand.

Once removed, I believe state law would then preempt. (If there is a lawyer here, by all means please enlighten)


The funny thing is, kwik didn't do anything wrong. He merely abided by the statute. Furthermore, because of this proposed legislation, it will force those who know this proposed piece of trash to be completely unconstitutional to act.

Bell Meade will likely end up with no ridiculous law preempting state law, which means those who open carry or CC in that town won't have to worry about an ancient law being used to leverage them out of their rights.

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slowfiveoh wrote:

wrightme wrote:

So, now, instead of "clearing an old law off the books," as the city attempts to claim, they are (as the NRA points out) removing the only exception that allows any carry of a firearm?

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The exception only allows for carry of the Army or Navy pistol, in hand.

Once removed, I believe state law would then preempt. (If there is a lawyer here, by all means please enlighten)


The funny thing is, kwik didn't do anything wrong. He merely abided by the statute. Furthermore, because of this proposed legislation, it will force those who know this proposed piece of trash to be completely unconstitutional to act.

Bell Meade will likely end up with no ridiculous law preempting state law, which means those who open carry or CC in that town won't have to worry about an ancient law being used to leverage them out of their rights.

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The unfortunate part is that Belle Meade is just amending it to make it unconstitutional. If they are concerned about gun rights why not repeal the entire law? For example, the City ofFranklin TN has no gun laws that I know of. They don't need them because the State has a million of them anyway.

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Have you contacted an attorney that specializes in firearms law in Tennessee and did he tell you "Yes your permit is no good in the whole city of Chattanooga or Brentwood or Collierville?" There are a few attorneys in this state that specialize in firearms laws.

The intent of the legislature when the handgun carry permit law was passed in the early tomid 1990's was that the permits are good STATEWIDE. That is a part of interpreting penal code. Just because something reads one way does not make it set in stone. Yes you are correct that the carrying in the hand deal people were charged....but that is before the state penal code was changed in about the late 1980's to what it is today for 'intent to go armed'.

Here's Collierville's Town Ordinance on Weapons....Maybe you can carry a nice 1911 or Beretta 92 loadedopenly in the hand and see what happens there because hey you don't need a permit to do that right since permits aren't good in Collierville?:

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor, dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knuckles, pistol, revolver or any other dangerous weapon or instrument, except the army or navy pistol which shall be carried openly in the hand. However, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply to members of the United States Armed Forces carrying such weapons as are prescribed by applicable regulations nor to any law enforcement officer engaged in their official duties, in the execution of process or while searching for or engaging in arresting persons suspected of committing crimes. Furthermore, the prohibition shall not apply to persons who have been summoned by such officer or police officer to assist in the discharge of his or her duties, nor to any conductor of any passenger or freight train of any railroad while he or she is on duty.

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Goodness KWIK....It looks like I've been breaking the law in Memphis all the time and all the people carrying in Memphis have been too...all 30 some odd thousand of us that live in Shelby County, according to your legal eagle reasoning....I wonder why they never told us that in our permit classes...or at the gun ranges in Memphis???? We're committing a crime even going to the range in Memphis. Our permits are no good in Memphis city limits! Look at this ordinance in Memphis city limits...please come to Memphis and have a meeting with District Attorney Gibbons, Mayor AC Wharton, and everyone else and fix this for those of us that live or work in the area...we might get arrested b/c our permits are no good..and correct the LEO's and lawyersteaching at the ranges teaching permit classes in the area. By golly I can't even carry period...not even openly in the hand like in Collierville...this is pure Chicago:

Any person who shall carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor; dirk; bowie knife or other knife of like form, shape or size; pocket knife with any blade over four inches in length; sword cane; ice pick; slingshot; blackjack, brass knuckles; Spanish stiletto; or any rifle or shotgun or any pistol or revolver of any kind whatever; or a fountain pen pistol or gun, or like instrument containing a firing pin capable of shooting tear gas or pistol cartridges; or any other dangerous weapon, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

B.
Any person who shall carry or exhibit in any manner within the limits of the city, any replica gun, or realistic toy gun, as defined in Section 10-32-3, or brandish in a threatening manner, in any public place, or on any public street, so as to cause a reasonable person apprehension or fear of bodily harm, or to believe their personal safety is endangered, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

C.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to any:

1.
Person employed in the army, air force, navy, or marine service of the United States while engaged in his or her official duties. Persons who are employed in the army, air force, navy, or marine service, shall only carry such weapons as are prescribed by the army, air force and navy regulations;

2.
Officer or police officer, or to any director, commissioner, or similar head of any metropolitan or municipal police department in this state, whether elected or appointed, while bona fide engaged in his or her official duties, in the execution of process, or while searching for or engaged in arresting criminals and transporting and turning them over to the proper authorities; or

3.
To any conductor of any passenger or freight train of any railroad while he or she is on duty.

C.
The director of the fire division, in conjunction with the director of police and the mayor may authorize certain named members of the fire department, who have been trained in the use of firearms, to go armed for a temporary period of time not to exceed thirty (30) days for any one period when the above-named officials have reasonable grounds and an emergency situation requires such authorization.

D.
Any officer, police officer, bonded and sworn deputy sheriff, director, commissioner, or other officers heretofore authorized to carry weapons by this or any statute of the state may carry such weapons at all times pursuant to a written directive by the executive supervisor of the organization to which he or she is attached or employed regardless of his or her regular duty hours or assignments; however, a copy of such written directive shall be retained as a portion of the records of the particular law enforcement agency who shall issue the directive.

E.
Any person who violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be subject to punishment as provided in Section 1-24-1 of this code.
[align=left](Ord. 3724 § 1(1), 2-16-88; Code 1985 § 20-21; Ord. 3343 § 1, 11-1-83; Ord. 2732 § 1, 7-11-78; Ord. 2232 § 1, 4-8-75; Ord. 940 § 1, 4-27-71; Code 1967 § 22-50) [/align]

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slowfiveoh wrote:

I am going to start emailing the Brady Foundation all of the posts that are in blatant support of their ideologies. I didn't last time, I merely used it as a point to get you people to realize how stupid and fear laden some of your statements were.

This time I'll go ahead and give them some intellectual, abstract thinking to back up the statements made here.

This should keep you guys occupied.

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Not even as a joke or sarcasm is this funny.

Don't even pretend to be the enemy within to force an opinion. :X

P.S. - You edit the above out and I will also.

Yata hey

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It appears Memphis has a prohibition of firearms. There is no exception for a regular person to carry.

"Any person who shall carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor; dirk; bowie knife or other knife of like form, shape or size; pocket knife with any blade over four inches in length; sword cane; ice pick; slingshot; blackjack, brass knuckles; Spanish stiletto; or any rifle or shotgun or any pistol or revolver of any kind whatever; or a fountain pen pistol or gun, or like instrument containing a firing pin capable of shooting tear gas or pistol cartridges; or any other dangerous weapon, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

Prohibition is unconstitutional only regulation is allowed.



Now, Belle Meade does allow the carry of a pistol and they regulated that to a specific type and manner. The clear intent of the Legislature is to allow cities to regulate arms if the laws were in effect before April 8, 1986.

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I support Grape Shot and I support Kwikrnu!

Grape Shot's points for arguement are right on the money, and Kwikrnu has been wronged.

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Well the family lawyer got back to me this morning, he is a practicing attorney in Davidson County where this incidentoccured. here are some simple reasons why it is legal for HCP holders in TN to carry. It is considered a defense to the red portion of the law found in many local municipalities.



"Under T.C.A. § 39-17-1307(b) ifyou carry a firearm, with the intent to go armed, you could be charged with "unlawfulpossession"unlessyou have a “defense” recognized by law. Unlawful possession under this subsection of the Tennessee Code is a misdemeanor. "



There are currentlyseveral statutory defenses available under theTennessee Code. The most obvious defenses apply to those who have lawful gun carry permits issued by the Department of Safety or are otherwise authorized by law to carry firearms. (i.e. a police officer or member of the military)

kwik would have been completely legal to carry a holstered loaded pistol openly or concealed without worry. From what I told my attorney he believes simplykwik mis-interpreted the law.



Good luck in court sir.

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razorback2003 wrote:

What Kwik has done is misinterpret state statute and also a city ordinance into thinking that, even with a TN handgun carry permit, he must carry his LOADEDhandgun in Belle Meade openly in the hand. That is furthest from the truth. I live in Tennessee and that is total garbage. That is an old state law that is no longer on the books.

Click to expand...

11-602. Weapons and firearms generally. It shall be unlawful for any
person to carry in any manner whatever, with the intent to go armed, any razor,
dirk, knife, blackjack, brass knucks, pistol, revolver, or any other dangerous
weapon or instrument except the army or navy pistol which shall be carried
openly in the hand. However, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply to
members of the United States Armed Forces carrying such weapons as are
prescribed by applicable regulations nor to any officer or policeman engaged in
his official duties, in the execution of process, or while searching for or engaged
in arresting persons suspected of having committed crimes. Furthermore, the
prohibition shall not apply to persons who may have been summoned by such
officer or policeman to assist in the discharge of his said duties. (Ord. 71-6,
§ 2.12. 1987 Code, § 10-212)


looks to me like this ordinance is still on the books.

I see no misinterpretation in this law. It states nothing that the colt must be unloaded--it says only that the colt MUST be carried openly in the hand.

I would even go so far as to question whether you would even NEED a permit to carry a black powder colt...