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Thread: Relevance to open carry advocacy of MOC scholarship fund?

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    I've heard about MOC putting in $500 dollars to a MSU (Michigan State University?) scholarship fund.

    How are these dollars promoting open carry?

    If I get a satisfactory answer, I'll continue making monetary contributions to MOC. If not, I'll only be contributing time and effort on open carry activities of MOC. My monetary donationsin support of open carryaren't going to someone else's general tuition and book costs at college.

    Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding why MOC is putting money in this. If so, someone please explain.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    It is for students that are on the MSU shooting team if I recall correctly. Oh and one other point they have a beautiful shooting facility on campus and part of this will involve holding some type of OC seminars for the students I believe.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    It is for students that are on the MSU shooting team if I recall correctly. Oh and one other point they have a beautiful shooting facility on campus and part of this will involve holding some type of OC seminars for the students I believe.
    ive heard of it,any word on if its going to be public?
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Yep, autosugeons understanding is my understanding of it as well.

    It makes sense I think. 500 dollars, to me, seems like a small price to pay if MOC can actually hand out information and do seminars at a major Michigan university.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    It is for students that are on the MSU shooting team if I recall correctly.
    Thanks for responding autosurgeon. What does the money go toward, specifically? And how much?


    Oh and one other point they have a beautiful shooting facility on campus and part of this will involve holding some type of OC seminars for the students I believe.
    Part of the money is involved with holding OC seminars? How much money, and how many seminars? How doesthis cost-per-seminar compare to cost-per-seminar associated with other venues, like the Gander Mountain seminars? Dollar-for-dollar, willwe get good audience sizes and exposure of open carry at the MSU shooting facility as compared to other venues, like Gander Mountain?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    Part of the money is involved with holding OC seminars? How much money, and how many seminars? How doesthis cost-per-seminar compare to cost-per-seminar associated with other venues, like the Gander Mountain seminars? Dollar-for-dollar, willwe get good audience sizes and exposure of open carry at the MSU shooting facility as compared to other venues, like Gander Mountain?
    Much more important than number of seminars, is how big they are, how many people can become well educated from them, and how much positive publicity we can get as a result.

    If we can get an article in the schools newspaper, as well as articles in other news papers/tv news, and advertise it really well to get a really substantial attendance, 500 seems quite reasonable. Perhaps not as many people will be reached as at a Cabelas or Gander Mountain event, but at the same time, it is an opportunity, perhaps, to reach out to university students, which in my opinion could be extremely beneficial.

    However, if things don't turn out ideally, you may be right. It may be a waste of money. Good points.
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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 12:50 PM.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    It makes sense I think. 500 dollars, to me, seems like a small price to pay if MOC can actually hand out information and do seminars at a major Michigan university.


    It's a small price to pay if we're getting equal or better results as far as advancing open carry in Michigan, versus other venues like sporting goods stores and gun shows.

    If, at a major Michigan university,the audience sizes are small, the audience isn't receptive to open carry,the audience is not taking open carry brochures or throwing them in the garbage, audience sign-up rates for MOC membership (or at least interest in membership) isn't there, etc., then spending $500 at that major Michigan university is a waste of money.

    Do we know yet which it is? If not, we do plan on treating it as a "pilot" project, and if the results don't pan out, we don't waste any more of the $500 than we have to, right?

    Also, the word "scholarship" suggests paying for tuition, books, or other educational expenses of students. Is there something else going on in that regard?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Again, it might be a complete waste of time and money. It's hard to have 20/20 foresight. Taking the MOC show on the road to a state university is pretty much venturing off into uncharted territory. If it is a good idea, the one thing I know for sure is that the first one won't be nearly as good as possible subsequent efforts.

    One way you can look at, if you want to discourage the idea, is to compare it to CPL classes. At my CPL class, I was asked to answer OC related questions. The class consisted of about 14 people, many of them long time gun owners. 1 said he might OC, but doubted it. Everyone else wanted some info, but stated they probably never would.

    Compare that to a college, where most students are prioritizing drinking, sex, and maybe studying, we might be considered an odd ball side issue by most.

    But at the same time, I like the idea of a headline "open carry seminar to be held at University". If they'll run a story about drinking coffee like 4 times on Fox, why wouldn't they run the hell out of that one? I don't know the details of what might be done, but just as an example, imagine MOC at a lecture hall, with students and interested public people, and a news crew or 2. Properly promo'd, something like that could get massive attention.

    All depends what the college will allow, and how MOC chooses to proceed.


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Remember there are many folks from diff backgrounds at a big school like MSU. The very fact that they still have a shooting team is amazing. The fact that they are entertaining the idea of letting us promote OC there is also amazing.

    We in the firearms community need to be there to counter the brady type hype that they get every day in their other classes and interactions.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    Perhaps not as many people will be reached as at a Cabelas or Gander Mountain event, but at the same time, it is an opportunity, perhaps, to reach out to university students, which in my opinion could be extremely beneficial.
    I agree. It's a totally different "crowd" that could be educated, and should be.
    Yes, it's great to get out there and try to talk to different groups of folks about open carry. I encourage all of us to spend time whenever the opportunity presents itself to do so, with the potential that your time may be wasted. But when it comes to money, I don't support*that* being wasted or at least spent in ways in which you could get a better return elsewhere.

    To illustrate, let's say I spend $50 each at two different venues to do someOC "exposure". I bring 200 tri-folds and some MOC membership cards to each. About the same size crowd shows up or drops in/out. Results:

    Venue 1: Discussion indicates many didn't know about OC, but support it or are now considering doing it. All 200 tri-folds are taken, and a peek in the trash cans in the area show only a couple arethrown away. TwentyMOC membership cards are taken, and 5 memberships are collected at the venue.

    Venue 2: Discussion indicates many didn't know about OC, think it's "cool" but seem to not begreatly interested in it. 50 tri-folds are taken, and a peek in the trash cans in the area show show a bunch thrown away ("read & toss" or "take something to be polite & toss"). Five MOC membership cards are taken, a couple of which you also spotted in trash cans and one dropped on the floor outside in the hallway.

    I say venue 2 was a good experiment, but drop venues like it and focus on venues like venue 1. Whichever venues universities, sporting goods stores, gun shows, etc. are falling into, spend your money where returns are maximized. Darwinian economics.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    All good points.

    But another good point is that properly done, this could get national news coverage, much like when the Church had an OC service. That is, if the college will allow for it to be done that way, and if MOC plays its cards right.

    If that isn't allowed to happen, or if somewhere along the line MOC screws up, Venue 2 seems like the likelihood.

    I am eager to hear from Generaldet.
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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    What do venue 1 and 2 have in common? There's no way to predict the outcome of either event. I get where you're coming from Dan as 500 is a small amount by no means, specially with such a relatively small grassroots movement like MOC. And I think it's right to question it when it's our money being spent to do this. I guess I just don't see how we can predict how successful this will be until it's done and behind us. To get onto a major university as a scholarship sponsor though, 500 seems like a low price.

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Yes the scholership is limited to members of MSU's shooting team. As the donor, we set the terms such as financial need, letter of recomendation and academic performance.

    There is no package deal as far as MOC holding seminars at the Demmer Building. The building is open to the public and we may be able to do a seminar there, but I am not aware of any discounted rate we would receive because we sponsored a scholership.

    We pursued the idea of the scholership in part due to MSU being proactive in removing some of their firearms restrictions. Of course, part of our interest is to support young people that have an interest in firearms. These folks we support now may indeed be some great allies in our defense of the second amendment. Part of the scholership award is also a complimentary one year student membership to MOC.

    Given the dollar amount proposed, we did put this to a poll of the membership. While I was not privy to the results of the poll personally I was told the support was overwhelming.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    FatboyCykes wrote:
    What do venue 1 and 2 have in common? There's no way to predict the outcome of either event. . . . To get onto a major university as a scholarship sponsor though, 500 seems like a low price.
    I haven't said anywhere you have to predict before you spend. I have been writing aboutspending only what's necessary to experiment withvenues and watching results (interest level of the audience, volume and treatment of tri-folds and membership cards, number of membership sign-ups accomplished, etc.).

    In other words, spend and measure. Spend only what it takes for one or two OC "seminars" at a type of venue.I don't think you have to spend $500 before you figure out that that$500 could have been spent elsewhere with much greater results in regard to effectively advancing OC awareness and exercise.

    Universities may be equal or better to other venues. I'm ok with experimenting to determine that. But$500 for the experiment? Sounds like an expensive experiment to me.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:
    FatboyCykes wrote:
    What do venue 1 and 2 have in common? There's no way to predict the outcome of either event. . . . To get onto a major university as a scholarship sponsor though, 500 seems like a low price.
    I haven't said anywhere you have to predict before you spend. I have been writing aboutspending only what's necessary to experiment withvenues and watching results (interest level of the audience, volume and treatment of tri-folds and membership cards, number of membership sign-ups accomplished, etc.).

    In other words, spend and measure. Spend only what it takes for one or two OC "seminars" at a type of venue.I don't think you have to spend $500 before you figure out that that$500 could have been spent elsewhere with much greater results in regard to effectively advancing OC awareness and exercise.

    Universities may be equal or better to other venues. I'm ok with experimenting to determine that. But$500 for the experiment? Sounds like an expensive experiment to me.
    Goot point. I wonder if 500 is the minimum for a scholarship spot though, 500 won't go very far so I'd assume is probably was the min. But you know what happens when you assume...

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    There is no package deal as far as MOC holding seminars at the Demmer Building. The building is open to the public and we may be able to do a seminar there, but I am not aware of any discounted rate we would receive because we sponsored a scholership.
    So, OC seminars canbe done at MSU for only the cost of renting space in Demmer. Spending$500 on scholarship sponsorship has no effect.


    Aprinciple oforganizational management isretaining focus on your mission and activities, because resources are finite and limited. Ways to think about the appropriateness of aproposed specific activityis to ask if the activity, generalized,is 1)closely aligned to the organization's objectives and 2)sustainable. MOC's objective is to educate and advocate for open carry in Michigan.

    We pursued the idea of the scholership in part due to MSU being proactive in removing some of their firearms restrictions.
    Generalized, the activity would be "sponsor scholarships for schools who are proactive in removing firearms restrictions". My opinion isthis activity is broad,not closely aligned to our specific objectives, and is not sustainable. It is noble . . . but we have finite and limited resources.


    part of our interest is to support young people that have an interest in firearms.
    The activity is already expressed generally:"supportyoung people that have an interest in firearms".My opinion isthis activity is broad,not closely aligned to our specific objectives, and is not sustainable. It is noble . . . but we have finite and limited resources.


    Given the dollar amount proposed, we did put this to a poll of the membership. While I was not privy to the results of the poll personally I was told the support was overwhelming.

    Overwhelming support doesn't always mean overwhelmingly wise decisions with regard to organizational management of finite resources in pursuit of sustainable activities closely aligned to the organization's mission.


    While I have no problem donating my time and effort to MOC, because I can control that being spent on only open carry education and advocacy, I'm having second thoughts about donating my money in ways in which I lose control of it and it may get spent on overly broad things which, while noble, are not closely aligned to open carry education and advocacy.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    DanM wrote:

    Overwhelming support doesn't always mean overwhelmingly wise decisions with regard to organizational management of finite resources in pursuit of sustainable activities closely aligned to the organization's mission.
    This theory isn't far from the one the current federal administration is trying to use to pass the health care bill that many, many people are opposed to. I suggest that if you want the organization to go in the direction you believe it ought to, you should absolutely get more directly involved with it, instead of advocating that they go ahead and make decisions contrary to what the membership has expressed is acceptable.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I started working on this before John took over and the reasons are many. The money goes to a student or the shooting team. MSU was the first State Campus to allow CC and soon I hope OC. The Shooting range is open to the public, it's GREAT PR, we can use the facilities and put on seminars, we hope to have a banner in the lobby year round, it give credibility to the fledgling organization. Man it's all win win.

    Let's look down the road on this. It will be a great use of funds.
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    Has anyone looked into what the rental rate for a space on campus would cost to put on an OC seminar? Is there the possibility they would donate a space for us? Have most conference rooms been donated in the past(Gander Mountain and so on)? If not what is the average rate we pay to put on the seminars?

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    Venator wrote:
    I started working on this before John took over and the reasons are many. The money goes to a student or the shooting team. MSU was the first State Campus to allow CC and soon I hope OC. The Shooting range is open to the public, it's GREAT PR, we can use the facilities and put on seminars, we hope to have a banner in the lobby year round, it give credibility to the fledgling organization. Man it's all win win.

    Let's look down the road on this. It will be a great use of funds.
    Excellent explanation.

    Good move. Great venue for future presentations/seminars to inform large groups.

    Media coverage for a presentation of this type would be phenomenal.

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