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Thread: Tea Party & 2nd Amendment

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Make would-be Tea Party leaders prove they support Second Amendment

    http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d16-Make-wouldbe-Tea-Party-leaders-prove-they-support-Second-Amendment?cid=examiner-email


    Movement must include no compromise on right
    to keep and bear arms. (AP Photo/Jeff Curry)

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Make would-be Tea Party leaders prove they support Second Amendment

    http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d16-Make-wouldbe-Tea-Party-leaders-prove-they-support-Second-Amendment?cid=examiner-email


    Movement must include no compromise on right
    to keep and bear arms. (AP Photo/Jeff Curry)

    Yata hey
    http://news.oldva.org/?p=1585

    http://news.oldva.org/?p=1570

    http://news.oldva.org/?p=1388

    and the big one
    Peninsula Patriots tell gun owners to cover up http://news.oldva.org/?p=1644



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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Peninsula Patriots tell gun owners to cover up
    Then they have no right to commandeer the moniker of "Patriot".
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Peninsula Patriots tell gun owners to cover up
    Then they have no right to commandeer the moniker of "Patriot".
    Agreed! If it were only the PP's, I'd cut the Tea Party some slack. Read the stories. They seem to always have their events in a gun unfriendly place.

    Calling the Tea Party people Patriots or Constitutionalists is like calling Green Peace, Sports Fishermen.

    On lobby day there was some fool dressed up in Patriot attire, handing out Party stuff. Seemed offended when I politely declined.

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    Why not allow the Tea Party to be just about the astronomical taxes we pay?
    Why must every right-leaning (gun ownership/carry shouldn't be a Right-Wing issue anyways) group attempt to Co-opt the Tea Party.
    This merely plays into the hands of those who love big-government, which will inevitably restrict/abolish our right to own/carry weapons.
    We're all independent individuals with rights and brains, but the reason political parties and movements work is because they act with focus and in unison to achieve their objectives. If you want the Tea Party to die, keep making a huge deal out of each pet issue you have!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Why not allow the Tea Party to be just about the astronomical taxes we pay?
    Why must every right-leaning (gun ownership/carry shouldn't be a Right-Wing issue anyways) group attempt to Co-opt the Tea Party.
    This merely plays into the hands of those who love big-government, which will inevitably restrict/abolish our right to own/carry weapons.
    We're all independent individuals with rights and brains, but the reason political parties and movements work is because they act with focus and in unison to achieve their objectives. If you want the Tea Party to die, keep making a huge deal out of each pet issue you have!
    That's a very intelligent and valid issue.

    The answer is pretty simple. The Tea Party people want to appear pro 2end. The claim to be, they went to Lobby day and participated in pro gun events, they claim to want the Constitution to prevail and it ain't on the piece meal rack.

    They can be whatever they want. I don't want them whizzing down my back and telling me it's raining though.

    I'll add a Quote:
    Kerry said, "I believe that the Constitution, our laws and our customs protect law-abiding American citizens' right to own firearms.

    That's what you get with groups like the TP. A bunch of Kerrys

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Why not allow the Tea Party to be just about the astronomical taxes we pay?
    Why must every right-leaning (gun ownership/carry shouldn't be a Right-Wing issue anyways) group attempt to Co-opt the Tea Party.
    This merely plays into the hands of those who love big-government, which will inevitably restrict/abolish our right to own/carry weapons.
    We're all independent individuals with rights and brains, but the reason political parties and movements work is because they act with focus and in unison to achieve their objectives. If you want the Tea Party to die, keep making a huge deal out of each pet issue you have!
    That is insulting! :X

    Why not make room for RKBA - unless you oppose that.

    The Tea Party is NOT just about high taxes. It is more about big government and all that encompasses. The original Boston Tea Party was primarily complaining about the lack of representation. So too are we dissatisfied with the lack of honest representation in our government and the Tea Party.

    The RKBA has individually, pointedly been denied participation in events in this area. It might be time to rethink this.

    The 2nd Amendment is not simply my pet issue - it is THE reason this country is strong. When (if) we lose that right, the others will follow.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    For those that don't want to wade through the links, this is the official reply I got, knowing it would be published. Pay special attention to the highlighted section about why people OC.

    Good Morning Don,
    I will be happy to answer your question. As an organizer for the Peninsula Patriots, I have been to many meetings, rallies, Tea Parties, Etc, both listening to, and presenting, 2nd Amendment speeches to those attending the events. In virtually EVERY case, a member of the media is present, with photographers, to “catch”
    those choosing to openly carry at the events. The story is then changed to make the story about the “GUN” and not our RIGHT to carry one. I carry a gun every day, and have had occasions to use it to protect myself, and others, from certain death. Never, however, have I felt the necessity to display it openly as a “badge of courage”, although I will fight to the death to defend my right, and yours, to do so.

    The Peninsula Patriots is a young, and still fragile, conservative movement.. We have already lost a few members who are afraid that we are becoming too vocal about the need to be prepared to use firearms, if necessary, to protect our freedoms. An open display of “gun totin’ Patriots, not Rednecks”, is very unsettling to many Americans, and we can’t afford to alienate current, and potential, members at this crucial time in our movement.
    Please allow me to ask you a few questions…
    1. Knowing that you have the right to own and carry a weapon virtually anywhere throughout Virginia, WHY do you feel the need to brandish your weapons openly in a friendly, non-threatening, environment? Were you concerned that you were going to be attacked by some unknown alien forces while attending a Patriotic rally?
    2. Several of those attending were actually making comical statements about one of your members who felt the need to not only openly carry a fully-loaded, semi-automatic weapon to a conservative rally, but also felt it necessary to carry multiple extra clips and other paraphernalia, just in case we came under a massive attack. Do you not realize that the legal, but inappropriate, “in your face” display of weaponry probably did your, and my, movement more harm than good?
    3. To put this in a more logical perspective…Virtually every Virginian, with the exception of felons and nut cases, has the right to openly carry a weapon, so that part is no big deal. It is your license to carry a CONCEALED weapon that sets you apart from those who don’t possess a similar permit. That being said…You may have a fishing license, but do you feel compelled to carry your rod and reel to the movies? You have a license to drive a car, but do you feel it is necessary to park it next to you at church? I could go on and on.
    Although I have spent many years in law enforcement internationally, both in counter-terrorism and counter-drug activities, I am also actively involved in marketing and public relations. Knowing the correct time and place to “show your wares”
    is a key component in successfully “selling” your products, services and ideas. Presenting your members as “casual commandos”
    in yesterday’s friendly, non-threatening setting was clearly “overkill”, and turned many potential members away from your worthy cause.

    As a professional in the field of law enforcement I would like to give a little sage advice. Law enforcement agencies train their officers to pay close attention to anyone who feels compelled to openly brandish a loaded weapon in public. Those openly carrying are put in various categories and observed accordingly. 1st. Power trip – The need to present the appearance of power to overcome feelings of inadequacy. 2nd. Need for authority - All too often, those individuals openly carrying weapons wanted to be a police officer with the power, but not the responsibility, that goes with the job. They were rejected for various reasons, usually psychological, followed by obesity, at which point many of them applied for positions as deputy sheriffs, then private security officers…anything that would give them a feeling of power over others. Although I am not accusing any members of your group of fitting into that category, it is a profile observed by most agencies and officers.
    Don, I am 100% behind you, and I applaud your continuing efforts to protect our 2nd Amendment rights. I am just trying to use years’
    of experience to assist you in waging a just and Holy war against those who would quickly deprive us of our freedoms if given half a chance. HooRah. Keep up the great work you are doing for ALL Americans.

    All the best,
    Tom


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    Peter,

    Where do these guys (and others like them) immediately make the claim that to openly carry a firearm, visible for all to see in its holster is brandishing?

    My walking around with a firearm in its holster carrying on with my normal daily routine is simply not threatening. If one perceives that as threatening, then perhaps one should check themselves for projection.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    darthmord wrote:
    Peter,

    Where do these guys (and others like them) immediately make the claim that to openly carry a firearm, visible for all to see in its holster is brandishing?

    My walking around with a firearm in its holster carrying on with my normal daily routine is simply not threatening. If one perceives that as threatening, then perhaps one should check themselves for projection.
    The same "Gun Laws For Idiots" book that told the Park Service carrying a rifle or shotgun in your hand is Brandishing.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    For those that don't want to wade through the links, this is the official reply I got, knowing it would be published. Pay special attention to the highlighted section about why people OC.

    ....... openly carry at the events. ............. “badge of courage”................

    WHY do you feel the need to brandish your weapons

    ...........
    inappropriate........... I could go on and on.................. your members

    as “casual commandos”............ clearly “overkill”


    ............. compelled to openly brandish a loaded weapon...........

    overcome feelings of inadequacy............ wanted to be a police officer

    .........…anything that would give them a feeling of power over others.


    Tom
    I rest my case.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    2nd. Need for authority
    As opposed to the officer who didn't get marked during the vetting procedure who still has a need for authority and seeks out opportunity to impose such on others?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    2nd. Need for authority
    As opposed to the officer who didn't get marked during the vetting procedure who still has a need for authority and seeks out opportunity to impose such on others?
    Ouch!

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Funny. You would think that an experienced LEO would know the difference between "brandishing" and lawful carry......just odd.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Among all the other comments...

    "a professional in the field of law enforcement" who has such a horrid misunderstanding of the definition of "brandishing", is quite disturbing, indeed.

    He's either incompetent, or a liar, or a propagandist, none of which helps his case.

    TFred

    ETA: Doh! bohdi beat me to it, I type too slow... or preview too much!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Although I am not accusing any members of your group of fitting into that category, it is a profile observed by most agencies and officers.
    And... correcting this ill-conceived image which is based on bigotry and ignorance, is one of the core purposes of the Open Carry movement as a whole. Of all the possible replies, that is probably the most important thing to pass back to the author of that e-mail.

    To whatever extent the author may or may not be correct about his assertion, fixing it is what OC is all about.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    To Get away from the PP...This is one of the Richmond area Tea parties at Baily's pub, which I got tossed out of for wearing a gun. He said "We are not anti gun, you just can't wear one here".

    The person saying that was one of the organizers and was one of the TP people at Lobby Day.



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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Disgusting that he would wear a shirt with Ben Franklin's lithograph AND the Gadsden flag behind him when one of the tipping points of the revolution was the confiscation of firearms.

    Idiots.

    They hijack symbols... "they" being groups with no knowledge or understanding of what the symbols REALLY MEAN (like those who commandeer and impugn the Confederate Flags)... and use them for purposes contrary to their original design, poisoning and diluting their history and heritage.

    Heretics. Blasphemers. Traitors.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    wylde007 wrote:
    Heretics. Blasphemers. Traitors.
    You forgot hypocrites...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    peter nap wrote:
    To Get away from the PP...This is one of the Richmond area Tea parties at Baily's pub, which I got tossed out of for wearing a gun. He said "We are not anti gun, you just can't wear one here".

    The person saying that was one of the organizers and was one of the TP people at Lobby Day.

    [img removed for space]
    I went shortly after you got the boot and I too got the boot.

    That was the first and last Tea Party event I tried to attend thanks to that nonsense.

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    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    If the tea party groups don't think people should OC then maybe they should remove the fangs from the rattlesnake on the Gadsden flags. Oh and the rattle too. In fact better change the whole thing to a cute little garter snake. Please oh please don't read on me.
    Don't want to scare anybody by "brandishing" our fangs. Better to keep our mouths shut.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    roscoe13 wrote:
    You forgot hypocrites...
    Thank you.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Is it just me...or do his 2A views seem astoundingly dated. Brandishing? Police applicant washouts? Only carry in "dangerous places?"

    His message clearly intends to influence OC'ers to stay away or play by their rules...obviously, moreso the former than the latter.

    Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth of his statements about how the MSM covers any event with armed participants.

    Your Humble Servant,

    useful_idiot

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Why not allow the Tea Party to be just about the astronomical taxes we pay?
    Why must every right-leaning (gun ownership/carry shouldn't be a Right-Wing issue anyways) group attempt to Co-opt the Tea Party.
    This merely plays into the hands of those who love big-government, which will inevitably restrict/abolish our right to own/carry weapons.
    We're all independent individuals with rights and brains, but the reason political parties and movements work is because they act with focus and in unison to achieve their objectives. If you want the Tea Party to die, keep making a huge deal out of each pet issue you have!
    It does take two to tango. The VCDL and OCDO are about guns. TEA Parties are about taxes and spending. I don't see a WHOLE lot of crossover coming from either base. Although it was nice to see the Richmond TEA Party contribute to the 2A during Lobby Day.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Years ago I read a great book written by Nat Hentoff, a well-known civil-liberties activist, entitled:

    Free Speech for Me--But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other
    Hentoff's guiding principle in this casebook is that the First Amendment's protection of free speech must be given to all, even to those whose views are repugnant. It is not only right-wingers who have censored free expression, he argues, but anti-porn feminists, blacks who attempt to ban Huckleberry Finn from schools (because the novel includes the word ******), gays who supported a blacklisting of Anita Bryant, and other enforcers of political correctness. Hentoff, a syndicated columnist and Village Voice regular, endorses American Nazis' right to march in Skokie, Ill., in 1977, arguing that hatred should be brought into the open and confronted with the truth. He supports flag-burners' First Amendment rights and opposes anti-bigotry speech codes on campuses, maintaining that politically correct" students and professors have stifled debate. He also criticizes the harsh limitations imposed on picketing anti-abortion groups. Hentoff's fierce consistency in this libertarian manifesto will draw the wrath of critics.
    In general, too many Americans view their liberties selfishly.

    Liberty for me, but not for thee. Get it?

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