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Thread: Carrying at Public Universities

  1. #1
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    Only two public universities in VA have a gun ban that can half be construed as enforceable law: GMU and VCU. They have theirs in the Virginia Administrative Code, and charge their university police depts. with the duty to ask "violators" to leave the property, and can charge you with trespass if you refuse.

    Places such as Virginia Tech, however, do not have their gun bans in code, and are simply university policy they require their students/faculty/staff to follow under contract.

    Reading through Tech's policy, I notice it has similar wording to GMU's VAC ban, in that it only applies to buildings and events. Tech says they can enforce their policy ban against the public, or as they call them, "third parties" (non-student/fac./staff).

    Since public universities in the commonwealth are state agencies, and are under full control of the general assembly (which has not passed a law banning guns at universities), under what grounds could VT prohibit you from open carrying at say a dining hall?

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    That is a good question, and one for which I can not provide a proper answer. However, I would like to share an anecdote, regarding Virginia Tech,that might be of some interest.

    Last spring, much of my family, several close family friends, and myself all attended the graduation ceremonyof one of my olderbrothers. My oldest brother and one of our close family friends (a recently retired Navy Senior Chief) were both carry concealed, as they nearly always do. At the entrance to the hall in which the ceremony was being held, "event security" was searching both persons and bags. Men were being asked to unbutton and open their suit coats and jackets (this included the many men in military uniforms), and women's purses and handbags were being rummaged through.

    My brother was carrying under a vest, which they did not ask him to open or remove, and the Chief was either carrying in the small of him back or with an ankle holster (he does both, and I never asked which it was that day), and his gun also went unseen.

    At the time, I couldn't help but wonder whatsecurity planned to do if they found what I presume they were looking for. It is my understanding that they can not out right ban carry, and I believe that these "security" measures were being used to scare awayanyone who was unsure about their right to carry there.

    In any case, haven't there been a fewSecond Amendment events held in VT builds, which were attended by open carrying individuals?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I'm just throwing some stuff out here:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+23-9.2C3
    Powers of governing body generally...
    Nothing in there says anything about regulating conduct of third parties as you defined

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...+cod+23-9.2C10 seems like it could be used as reasoning

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...000+cod+23-122
    2nd paragraph seems like it would prohibit VT from stripping students of their right to carry. Yes I'm aware of the AG opinion stating otherwise.

    I found nothing else in the VT section saying they could regulate third parties.


    Should we determine that they may not prohibit what you've described, and should you want to do it. Let me know, I'd be willing to join.
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    Regular Member fairfax1's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    Yes I'm aware of the AG opinion stating otherwise.
    Perhaps it is time for us to request (through a member of the GA), that Cuccinelli issue a new opinion.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I was thinking the exact same thing. Although it was only very clear in the VT section. The ODU section does not mention a prohibition against creating regulations contrary to law.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    fairfax1 wrote:
    t33j wrote:
    Yes I'm aware of the AG opinion stating otherwise.
    Perhaps it is time for us to request (through a member of the GA), that Cuccinelli issue a new opinion.
    +1

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Be VERY CAREFUL what you ask for. Cuccinelli has issued his Opinion about the Red Cross banning firearms in a city park (page 4 here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/26141-4.html).

    Quite frankly I thought at the time that the question was posed incorrectly and would lead to the Opinion we got handed to us.

    For those who do not quite yet understand, let me tell you the stoty of two priests that were smokers. Priest #1 asked the Pope if it was OK to smoke while praying. Pope said "No! Smoking detracts from the holy act of prayer." Priest #2 asked the Pope if it was OK to pray while smoking. Pope said "It's always permissible and proper to pray, and especially when your life may be in danger."

    We needed priest #2 to ask the question but got priest #1 instead.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    nova wrote:
    fairfax1 wrote:
    t33j wrote:
    Yes I'm aware of the AG opinion stating otherwise.
    Perhaps it is time for us to request (through a member of the GA), that Cuccinelli issue a new opinion.
    +1
    First, you have to ask what an AG opinion will do for you.
    The opinion is just that, an opinion. It isn't law and isn't enforceable as law.

    You can use the basis of the opinion as reinforcement in an action, but that's about the end of it.

    With the Colleges, it would take action by the Governor or a Judge to get them to blink. Legal action is expensive and iffy. We've already found that out.

    The Governor..You can take a guess because i don't know. So far I'm not really impressed. VDOF will really tell which way that wind's blowing and I have a nagging suspicion McDonnell isn't going to get into it.

    I've arranged for an opinion to be requested concerning WMA's but I'm not going to until VDOF is finished. If that comes out the way I'm afraid it will, there's no reason to waste Cuccenelli's time or mine.

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    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU? I can't wait to see what happens when the Washington Post finds out Cuccinelli is discriminating against firearm owners and gays.

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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU? I can't wait to see what happens when the Washington Post finds out Cuccinelli is discriminating against firearm owners and gays.
    Must we bring the Tea Party into this?



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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU?
    Umm, i'm getting ready to graduate in May and dont need any help delaying that further but I will be the guy off to the side(on the public sidewalk) rooting you on.

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    driveramsII wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU?
    Umm, i'm getting ready to graduate in May and dont need any help delaying that further but I will be the guy off to the side(on the public sidewalk) rooting you on.
    A wise man knows when to march....and when to watch!

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    driveramsII wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU?
    Umm, i'm getting ready to graduate in May and dont need any help delaying that further but I will be the guy off to the side(on the public sidewalk) rooting you on.
    Tomorrow's Front Page of the Washington Post will certainly be captioned, "Cuccinelli Discriminates against Firearm Owners". We won't be alone, the Washington Post will not stand for such oppression and there will be a call to March! Just you wait and see.

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    driveramsII wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU?
    Umm, i'm getting ready to graduate in May and dont need any help delaying that further but I will be the guy off to the side(on the public sidewalk) rooting you on.
    And once you graduate, they'll send you a never-ending barrage of requests to "support the old Alma Mater", to which you can reply, "I'm sorry, I can't in good conscience support an instution that discriminates against Second Amendment proponents."

    Then donate to the pro-2A cause of your choice instead!



    TFred


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    Have been reading a Utah thread about an OC incident at Utah Valley University.

    Brings up many of the same issues we go round and round with here. Pre-emption, CC permit vs. OC, "disturbing the peace", and the only one they can possibly hang him with (doubtful IMO), disrupting school activities.

    Situation revolves around the University creating policy in violation of State law. One thing I noted is that the aspects of Utah law quoted are VERY CLEAR, IMO, and the University does not have a leg to stand on. This is still developing. Their danger lies in that while what the young patriot did is not illegal, it could cause a backlash with more restrictive legislation pertaining to OC. They already can carry on campus if they have a Concealed Permit. Univ. is trying to say they MUST conceal and the school is within the law to prohibit OC.

    I would err on the side of personal protection. Would rather CC than no carry at all as we have here.

    45 pages of comments at the Utah Concealed Carry site revealed very explicit prohibitions against Universities "writing their own laws". Are our VA laws as well put together?

    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...;sk=t&sd=a

    An example:

    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

    (Boldmine)

    Kinda like Ken C's arguement about protecting people per their sexual orientation. He says a college can't make law. He is right.

    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    VA Public Universities are governed by boards of visitors whose powers are enumerated in Title 23 of the Virginia code. I found nothing mentioning firearms explicitly, however VT and the Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority have the bit about not creating rules not contrary to law. Are we to assume the other Universities are permitted to create rules contrary to law?
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    TFred wrote:
    driveramsII wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    So who is up for marching and demonstrating at VCU?
    Umm, i'm getting ready to graduate in May and dont need any help delaying that further but I will be the guy off to the side(on the public sidewalk) rooting you on.
    And once you graduate, they'll send you a never-ending barrage of requests to "support the old Alma Mater", to which you can reply, "I'm sorry, I can't in good conscience support an instution that discriminates against Second Amendment proponents."

    Then donate to the pro-2A cause of your choice instead!



    TFred
    I would never give any more money to those theiving, good for nothings anyway.


    Wow... that came out kinda harsh, I do like 2(?) prof. i've had there.

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    VApatriot wrote:
    In any case, haven't there been a fewSecond Amendment events held in VT builds, which were attended by open carrying individuals?
    Yes. I was at one of them and OCed. I've also OCed at a concert and around campus a couple of times.

    The OP is correct, VT doesn't have a leg to stand on... or they would have expelled me back in '05.

    C.

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    skidmark wrote:
    Be VERY CAREFUL what you ask for. Cuccinelli has issued his Opinion about the Red Cross banning firearms in a city park (page 4 here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/26141-4.html ).

    Quite frankly I thought at the time that the question was posed incorrectly and would lead to the Opinion we got handed to us.

    For those who do not quite yet understand, let me tell you the stoty of two priests that were smokers. Priest #1 asked the Pope if it was OK to smoke while praying. Pope said "No! Smoking detracts from the holy act of prayer." Priest #2 asked the Pope if it was OK to pray while smoking. Pope said "It's always permissible and proper to pray, and especially when your life may be in danger."

    We needed priest #2 to ask the question but got priest #1 instead.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Ok, I read this last night and have been trying to figure it out, but have not been able to do so...

    We got priest #1, who asked "is it OK to smoke while praying?"

    From the opinion, Cuccinelli says he was asked:

    You inquire whether a private entity that has leased property from a local government for the purpose of hosting an event may lawfully prohibit persons from carrying a firearm on such property and for such event.
    So, priest #2 asks "is it OK to pray while smoking?"

    How would you have worded this inquiry to the AG to conform to the priest #2 perspective?

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    skidmark wrote: How would you have worded this inquiry to the AG to conform to the priest #2 perspective?

    TFred
    Can Colleges ban the carry of firearms when chewing tobacco.

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    TFred wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Be VERY CAREFUL what you ask for. Cuccinelli has issued his Opinion about the Red Cross banning firearms in a city park (page 4 here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/26141-4.html ).

    Quite frankly I thought at the time that the question was posed incorrectly and would lead to the Opinion we got handed to us.

    For those who do not quite yet understand, let me tell you the stoty of two priests that were smokers. Priest #1 asked the Pope if it was OK to smoke while praying. Pope said "No! Smoking detracts from the holy act of prayer." Priest #2 asked the Pope if it was OK to pray while smoking. Pope said "It's always permissible and proper to pray, and especially when your life may be in danger."

    We needed priest #2 to ask the question but got priest #1 instead.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Ok, I read this last night and have been trying to figure it out, but have not been able to do so...

    We got priest #1, who asked "is it OK to smoke while praying?"

    From the opinion, Cuccinelli says he was asked:

    You inquire whether a private entity that has leased property from a local government for the purpose of hosting an event may lawfully prohibit persons from carrying a firearm on such property and for such event.
    So, priest #2 asks "is it OK to pray while smoking?"

    How would you have worded this inquiry to the AG to conform to the priest #2 perspective?

    TFred
    Essentially along the lines I have been hammmering at all along:

    May a local government allow a private entity/person who leases a public space by permit to deny the right of lawful carry of firearms during the period of the permit?

    That is not the ultimate phrasing that I would most likely go with, but you asked for a response and I figured something now for the sake of discussion, with the right to revise and amend, would be better than a significant delay while I checked for the n+1th time that the wording was as perfect as it could be.

    Contrast my question to the one submitted to the AG, which essentially asked if the Red Cross could deny the carry of firearms. My question asks if the local government can abrogate rights via a permit while the one actually posed asked if a private party can establish their own rules while using a public space.

    My gripe is not with the AG Opinion, which I happen to believe is essentially correct. My gripe is with the question asked.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Be VERY CAREFUL what you ask for. Cuccinelli has issued his Opinion about the Red Cross banning firearms in a city park (page 4 here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/26141-4.html ).

    Quite frankly I thought at the time that the question was posed incorrectly and would lead to the Opinion we got handed to us.

    For those who do not quite yet understand, let me tell you the stoty of two priests that were smokers. Priest #1 asked the Pope if it was OK to smoke while praying. Pope said "No! Smoking detracts from the holy act of prayer." Priest #2 asked the Pope if it was OK to pray while smoking. Pope said "It's always permissible and proper to pray, and especially when your life may be in danger."

    We needed priest #2 to ask the question but got priest #1 instead.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Ok, I read this last night and have been trying to figure it out, but have not been able to do so...

    We got priest #1, who asked "is it OK to smoke while praying?"

    From the opinion, Cuccinelli says he was asked:

    You inquire whether a private entity that has leased property from a local government for the purpose of hosting an event may lawfully prohibit persons from carrying a firearm on such property and for such event.
    So, priest #2 asks "is it OK to pray while smoking?"

    How would you have worded this inquiry to the AG to conform to the priest #2 perspective?

    TFred
    Essentially along the lines I have been hammmering at all along:

    May a local government allow a private entity/person who leases a public space by permit to deny the right of lawful carry of firearms during the period of the permit?

    That is not the ultimate phrasing that I would most likely go with, but you asked for a response and I figured something now for the sake of discussion, with the right to revise and amend, would be better than a significant delay while I checked for the n+1th time that the wording was as perfect as it could be.

    Contrast my question to the one submitted to the AG, which essentially asked if the Red Cross could deny the carry of firearms. My question asks if the local government can abrogate rights via a permit while the one actually posed asked if a private party can establish their own rules while using a public space.

    My gripe is not with the AG Opinion, which I happen to believe is essentially correct. My gripe is with the question asked.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    It's a good answer, even if just a start. I think it's a valuable thing for all of us to keep in mind... One reason I asked!

    One of the most important lessons I've ever learned is "do not ask questions you don't want to know the answer to." I suppose the corollary would be "word the question such that you are pretty sure you will like the answer..."

    TFred

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    OK, now I'm confused by the question, "May a local government allow a private entity/person who leases a public space by permit to deny the right of lawful carry of firearms during the period of the permit?".

    A couple of years ago I investigated the legalities of The Roanoke Times banning firearms from the 4th of July party they host at a city park in Roanoke. What I found was that they do not lease the property at all but instead get a license to hold the event. The state says the city may not lease out public property. IANAL but this was the gist of it.

    It seems that the whole question is moot. One thing is for sure, if the Roanoke Times can ban guns next year they will.

    C.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    Those college students sure are creative when trying to circumvent the no weapons policy.
    ------

    A Henrico County judge today certified a first-degree murder charge against a first-year student from the University of Virginia accused in connection with the slaying of his father in January.

    A Henrico police detective testified at a hearing this morning that Jian Zhang, 47, was fatally struck multiple times with a bowling pin as he entered his home after a trip to the post office.

    Detective Joe Schihl told the court that Alan Yuan Chang, 19, a graduate of the Maggie L. Walker Governor’s School for International Studies, had an argument with his father and had been angered that his father had made slurs against his mother, who was on an overseas trip.

    During interviews, Schihl said, Chang first denied that he assaulted his father. Chang made the 911 call to authorities and claimed the attack was the result of a suspected break-in. The next day he called police and said he wanted to make a statement, admitting the attack, Schihl told the court.

    A circuit court appearance has been set for March 31 for Chang.

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/ne...ng_pin/332126/

    I wonder what kind of holster he had for that Bowling Pin and which gun show did he buy it at?

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    CPerdue wrote:
    The state says the city may not lease out public property.
    Really? Why? What statute forbids this? fairfax County leases aprtments to the to the middle class people making a lot of oney - I would love to shut that down!

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