Open Carry

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I don't want to start a fight here but The reason why most folks open carry has always puzzled me. Is it 'look at me, I have a gun'. I carry concealed in the winter and open carry in the summer when we don't wear a jacket and, yes I do have a CCW. If some guy decides to bust you in the chops and has only his fists, you had better get ready for an ass whippin because, if you pull your weapon, concealed or otherwise, you're in big trouble.



Open carry is a great thing but it hurts our image when someone walks about with a full western style rig, tied down yet. That sort of conduct really hurts the open carry movement. We have to display common sense and do it right.

Colorado slick

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You make a good point. Some do open carry just for the attention and I also agree that the western rigs are out of line only because of safety. I carry a level 2 retention holster at all times. CC is no problem in the winter because you don't stand out when in a coat or jacket all the time. Summer is on the other hand is harder to CC and thus the reason for OC like yourself. I do have to disagree with the getting your ass whooped, if the person hits you and you fight back and are not able to get away and the BG is still kickin your ass even after your down or if he(she) gives chase when you try to flea, you have to assume that his intended actions are to inflict great harm and or death to your person. In that case you would be well within your rights to draw your weapon in defense of your life. If the threat is immediate and unavoidable you can use deadly force.
The key word to any self defense use of lethal force is immediate and unavoidable!

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Watched a video in class.. Guy pulls up to a business and gets out of the truck. He's on his way in and is approached by a bum. Bum gets in his way. Bum spits in the guys face. The guy pushes the bum away and get scuffle to the ground. The bum picks up a brick and just as he brings it up above guy's head- guy shoots him and rolls. Justified shooting they said- but the best solution would be to walk away completely- even after getting spit on. Go back to the truck.

They said.. "Yeah the bad guy gets away with it.. and is emboldened. You avoided furthering the encounter." Report the bum to the police and get on with life if you need a try at justice.

I wouldn't take to much of an ass whooping. It's very common to "knock someone out" or "cold cock" somebody whatever the term you use is. If you are being repeatedly hit in the head or face and honestly you didn't start the fight.. and you tried to retreat (always the best option we learned).. If you are still getting your shit knocked in with a fist.. you would be justified in defending yourself and your property. You get knocked out and your pistol is... you get it. Primarily need to protect your brain, then pistol: if you are getting your ass whooped- at least pistol whip the guy. A pistol butt is severely painful to the face. You can crush a cheek or jaw bone.

I'm not an expert but I do speculate ALL the time.

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In my PP class it was pointed out that the law says "great bodily harm", not just a threat to your life. A couple of goodblows to the head will give you enough brain damage to be "great bodily harm".

To reference the "bum" story, here's one of mine. I was walking up Colfax one night and there were was a group of homeless on my way. One woman and 2-3 men.They asked the person in front of me for money and were refused.

The lead woman stuck her arm out in front of me to mock-clothesline me. (Mock because it was plain that she wanted to interfere with my walking, not hit me.)I moved the arm and went to pass. She shoved me. I turned to face her and as she hurled insults she raised her arms which lifted her jacket and showed a box cutter on her waist. I squared off with her and watched the others. She told me she wanted to go around the corner to fight because she was on probation, blah blah blah. I told her it wasn't my problem and if she wanted to fight we could do it there.

A police car passed and I tried to flag him to no avail as I wasn't going to turn my back on the group. One of the men started jeering me for being willing to fight a woman. I told the group of them that they were the lastpeople that ought to be attacking MY character (in much less polite words). This went on for a whileuntil the woman led them away.

So, walk away? Noooo, nonononononono, no, I wasn't going to turn my back on them. Call the police? Yeah, didn't have a cell phone. They weren't common then. It resolved okay and I wasn't carrying, but I'll say the law and ethics were well on my side if things went badly.

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The brick makes a differance here. If the attacker has nothing but his fists then he will not be considered to be able to inflict deadly force.



What I am trying to get across here is that one must be very careful when if comes to pulling a shooter but, having said that, I am not about to take an ass whooping. Like I said in the above post, I am not trying to start a fight here and I will defend myself. One way or the other. BTW, I carry my Springfield 1911-A-1 in an FBI style slant holster



Colorado Slick

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colorado slick wrote:

The brick makes a differance here. If the attacker has nothing but his fists then he will not be considered to be able to inflict deadly force.

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But the law doesn't just say "deadly force". It says "great bodily harm". If you're a 70 year old woman against a 250lb "bum" with or without a brick, turning your back and walking away is not necessarily the best way to preserve your safety.

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Yeah there's HankT's ____ _ ____ Defense. He says Never Shoot someone that is unarmed. If they have nothing but a fist- bad form- bad form. It can be justified and recently was considered so by a ruling- it's in our General Section I think I'm not sure though.

If you are getting your ass knocked out by a fist or a brick- either way you are blacking out. What I was saying is lots and lots and lots of fights end up with someone being "knocked out cold." You can't let that happen. Your pistol is vulnerable- Concealed or Openly Carried.

that's all I'm saying but definitely agree to defend yourself with GREAT caution fist, brick, knife, or gun.

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Good points.

Colorado

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cscitney87 wrote:

He says Never Shoot someone that is unarmed.

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But unarmed with what? If there's 5 of them, they're armed with numbers. If there's fewer and they outweigh you, they're armed with size. How do you determine they're unarmed? Which one has a knife tucked away?

I fully agree don't draw until you're going to shoot and don't shoot until you have to, but when you "have to" isn't cut and dry.

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Don't Shoot the Messenger

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The thing I like about this panel is that these debates really do bring out some good points. All I am stressing here is be very cautious but......Don't leave any wittnesses. LOL

Colorado

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You're doing just fine. I believe that all of thee postings cause us the be realistic and think about what we are doing. As for oc in a public place i make every effort to keep my shooter hidden as much as possible. The only experience I have ever had with LEO's was down in Raton N.M. where three boys in blue tried to trade me for my Springfield offering their Glocks in trade....Fat chance.

Colorado

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There are plenty of stories of people being beaten to death with bare fist! As I said in my first post, if the BG is still beating you after you go down or pursues you when you try and get away then you have every right to think they intend to cause great bodily harm or death to you! There are some people who are trained to kill with their bare hands and you wont know who they are until your dead. I know what skills I have and when to use them. I have been in a few fights over the years and you know that its just that, A fight. Its a whole lot different if someone is trying to kill you and I'm sure you would know the difference.
You are entitled to use lethal force if the situation is immediate and unavoidable. Are you suppose to let the BG kill you first and then take your weapon to make sure your entitled to the use of deadly force. I THINK NOT!

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I agree with you

Colorado

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Maybe poster is right, maybe he is wrong. Don't know. People have a right to dress the way they want, carry the way they want.

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Pace wrote:

Maybe poster is right, maybe he is wrong. Don't know. People have a right to dress the way they want, carry the way they want.

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You know, Pace, I think a persons method of carry in a given situation can really tell a lot about a person. I think this "telling" is very very deep.

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God forbid that I ever have to use it but, I want my shooter where I can get at it. It probably wouldn't work if we had to ask an attacker to wait until we got our coat unbuttoned, would it. I have pulled the trigger on men before but the thought of doing it again makes me sick.



Colorado

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colorado slick wrote:

God forbid that I ever have to use it but, I want my shooter where I can get at it. It probably wouldn't work if we had to ask an attacker to wait until we got our coat unbuttoned, would it. I have pulled the trigger on men before but the thought of doing it again makes me sick.



Colorado

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As an open carrier Or concealed carrier- you should be extra extremely aware of your surroundings. You should be able to determine, [minutes] ahead of time; if you will be in a sticky situation.

There are a few surprises, here and there, but if you are Surprised in the first place- your OC pistol May be the target: first.

See really; as long as you are aware in the first place- you need not worry. Ideally you will have enough awareness to foresee the oncoming threat(s).

My .02 anyway. Now worth .01.

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.02 to .01 now that's funny.

Yeah I am alawys aware of what is going on aroundme, in front or behind.

Colorado

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colorado slick wrote:

I don't want to start a fight here but The reason why most folks open carry has always puzzled me. Is it 'look at me, I have a gun'. I carry concealed in the winter and open carry in the summer when we don't wear a jacket and, yes I do have a CCW. If some guy decides to bust you in the chops and has only his fists, you had better get ready for an ass whippin because, if you pull your weapon, concealed or otherwise, you're in big trouble.



Open carry is a great thing but it hurts our image when someone walks about with a full western style rig, tied down yet. That sort of conduct really hurts the open carry movement. We have to display common sense and do it right.

Colorado slick

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You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

In the instance of open carry, if someone is trying to fight me and he can clearly see that I'm armed, I have all the reason in the world to believe that he means to cause me serious bodily injury or death. I am well within my legal rights to defend myself should lethal force be necessary.

On another note, I highly doubt that I would ever be in a situation like that because I do my best to avoid trouble in the first place.