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Thread: How to handle police encounters *revisited* ...

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    I feel this thread is extremely important. I feel many people especially people are are new to open carry feel that it's worthwhile to have roadside debates, explaining the laws,etc. with officers who stop people for open carrying. It's not your job to train officers on open carry and the worst time to think about this is when you are under investigation.

    The reason an officer stops a person who is open carrying is to investigate the OC'er. Once stopped you should automatically consider it a detainment and an encounter. Your goal should be one thing to get out of the situation without charges, or worse.

    The only sure way to protect your rights is to ask the officer one simple question.

    "Am I being detained?"

    Many officers will not answer or even say no. Which is fine. If that happens simply calmly walk away. If they stop you from leaving which most likely they will then you are automatically considered detained anyways. Once they start firing every question under the sun you make one statement.

    "If you want to ask me questions you will need to speak with my lawyer."

    They will not like this. Most likely they will get angry and try everything under the sun to get you to give up your rights and sing like a canary. Please believe me when I say it's not a good thing to try and "school, train, teach,etc" the officer on Michigan Laws. Even a casual conversation is not advised. Simply DO NOT SAY ANYTHING MORE. You didn't break the law by shutting up. The moment you start talking is the point at which you've opened the door for further violations of your rights. The average person says way too much especially when their nervous. Believe me I know I do.

    Now I'm not saying that educating the public, police officers, anyone you possibly can talk to about the open carrying of a handgun is off limits. Most of us know that it's a key aspect of what we're trying to do. What I'm trying to say is that there is a time and a place for everything. During a police investigation in which you are the suspect or even the witness or the victim you should speak to a lawyer before making statements to the police. Always keep in mind that victims and witnesses can be turned in to suspects at the drop of a dime.

    Please don't see this thread as a anti-police, anti-law enforcement, anti anything thread. It couldn't be farther from the truth. If we were anti-police why would we take the time to send packets of information over departments all over the state. If we were anti then why would many of us contact the departments in which we have an encounter and speak to supervisors and even the officers at the stations. I'm friends with several police officers, one I just happened to have been friends with since high school (20 years now). I was great friends with an officer who worked part time with me as a street cop who ended up on SWAT. This thread is about protecting your rights. Just like I dont rely on officers to protect my family from attack I also don't relay on them to protect my rights. It's right up there with the same reason you don't give random people who call your house your social security number.

    New people and veteran OC'ers should stick to this very simple process.

    You:"Am I being detained?"

    Officer: No answer or no.

    If that happens simply calmly walk away.

    If they stop you from leaving, stop. Once they start firing every question under the sun you make one statement.

    Answer one time by saying: If you want to ask me questions you will need to speak with my lawyer.

    If you feel I'm bias that's fine. Don't take my word for it maybe this professor will help you see the light. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5833865&hl=en#

    Still not convince? Call any civil rights attorney in the USA.

    *** Please note that this strategy is for open carrying and not driving a vehicle. Driving a vehicle is considered concealed in Michigan and you must disclose but same rules apply after you disclose.***


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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    And this is the reason Wash Rinse Repeat was written by Ghostrider!

    Talking with the police is NEVER in your best interest when they stopped you!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    And this is the reason Wash Rinse Repeat was written by Ghostrider!

    Talking with the police is NEVER in your best interest when they stopped you!!
    It's simple to say check wash rinse and repeat. Go take a look at the Youtube site. Of all the encounters on there show me one where someone followed wash, rinse, repease. There is only one that finally followed it. That's Ponderosa and it was Kimberguy. He didn't say one word and nobody said anything to him. That's how it's done.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    And this is the reason Wash Rinse Repeat was written by Ghostrider!

    Talking with the police is NEVER in your best interest when they stopped you!!
    Maybe this information should be considered for inclusion in an updated W,R,R.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Trust me this will work NO better as people are just to foolish to follow it. They are like " but I am legal so this guy has got to be educated BC I am legal in what I am doing" and so they flap their gums and dig a deeper and deeper hole!


    And yes Kimberguy did a great job...BUT he has had practice and that is why I think role playing would be a good tool!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Very good thread. Reinforces what I have been saying about wash rinse repeat being too complicated.

    Telling them that they should talk to your lawyer isn't the way I'd normally do it, but it's a very good idea.



    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    Very good thread. Reinforces what I have been saying about wash rinse repeat being too complicated.

    Telling them that they should talk to your lawyer isn't the way I'd normally do it, but it's a very good idea.
    You dont even have to say talk to my lawyer. I have nothing to say works or stand mute. At least with talk to my lawyer you're invoking something that has legal precedence. At that point the questioning ends or should end.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    And yes Kimberguy did a great job...BUT he has had practice and that is why I think role playing would be a good tool!
    It is a good point. Police are trained experts at using manipulative bullying to get inexperienced people to sing like a rock star. Properly done police interaction training may very well help. But it would be difficult to do well.

    He never gave me permission to tell his story, so I won't say who it was, but there is at least 1 person I can think of who managed to do a good job at staying quiet when felony stopped the first time. Granted that is the exception rather than the rule, but if you are a disciplined type of person, it can be done.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    CV67PAT wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:
    And this is the reason Wash Rinse Repeat was written by Ghostrider!

    Talking with the police is NEVER in your best interest when they stopped you!!
    Maybe this information should be considered for inclusion in an updated W,R,R.
    True. It is why I wrote WASH, RINSE, REPEAT.

    Mike, myself, and others had a discussion about this topic earlier, and when I suggested that he post it, he responded by stating that it was in process.

    WRR was not a be-all-end-all (nor was it meant to be a sole authority), and Mike has some excellent points. One of the points of WRR is here also, and that is, "If they are fishing, keep them wishing." IOW, "don't talk, walk".

    WASH, RINSE, REPEAT is somewhat extensive, and can be quite a bit to digest. Mike simplifies things by breaking it down.

    Michigander also has some good points. I think that for some people WRR may well be a bit much. It's essentially only three phrases , but I think some people may tend to get caught up in the more in depth elements and explanations of the process. Rather than stick with the program, they expound on it. You don't need to know if the officer has lawful RAS, because it doesn't matter (to you). That's for your lawyer to determine.

    Pat made the comment that it wasn't working. When i countered with, "It isn't being employed." he concurred. autosurgeon even suggested this in a succeeding post.

    Folks. The police in this state are fully aware of the legalities of OC. Heck, they even know some of us by name and face. They don't need , nor care for education on the legalities of it, and the only education they are getting from the OC crowd is how to better conduct fishing expeditions while protecting themselves from legal liability.

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    This thread is got to be made sticky. Great advise

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    And the moral of this story is keep the fly trap closed and the voicebox on mute and you will be much better off!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    The only thing I would say to a cop is that "The last time I tried being open and honest with one of you, I got convicted of something I diddnt do, and my constitutional privleges were suspended."

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    sasha601 wrote:
    This thread is got to be made sticky. Great advise
    No need to do that. Once we finish hashing out this thread, I'll post them in WRR.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    The only thing I would say to a cop is that "The last time I tried being open and honest with one of you, I got convicted of something I diddnt do, and my constitutional privleges were suspended."
    Sigh.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ľ Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:
    sasha601 wrote:
    This thread is got to be made sticky. Great advise
    No need to do that. Once we finish hashing out this thread, I'll post them in WRR.
    :celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Bronson wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    The only thing I would say to a cop is that "The last time I tried being open and honest with one of you, I got convicted of something I diddnt do, and my constitutional privleges were suspended."
    Sigh.

    Bronson
    Stainless.... don't even say that much....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    would be nice to hear from some people who are new to OC. It's always good to see things frim an outside perspective.

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    I agree! too much talking going on during encounters.

    I also think an important thing to say is that

    "I do not consent to any searches or seizures, including running the serial numbers on this firearm, however, i will not physically resist"

    Takes away the ability of the officer to later claim that you somehow consented to the seizure.

    Some disagree, but i think asking the officer why you are being detained is also great, especially if you can get them to admit that they stopped you because you are carrying a gun....or because someone called and said there is a mwag.

    biggest point that needs to be made is to shut up! Stop Talking!
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Here is a VERY good video. Do yourselves a favor and watch the entire thing. It's not about open carry but it's about why you don't want to talk to the police.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

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    lapeer20m wrote:
    I agree! too much talking going on during encounters.

    I also think an important thing to say is that

    "I do not consent to any searches or seizures, including running the serial numbers on this firearm, however, i will not physically resist"

    Takes away the ability of the officer to later claim that you somehow consented to the seizure.

    Some disagree, but i think asking the officer why you are being detained is also great, especially if you can get them to admit that they stopped you because you are carrying a gun....or because someone called and said there is a mwag.

    biggest point that needs to be made is to shut up! Stop Talking!
    Pretty much full circle.

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    daniels wrote:
    Here is a VERY good video. Do yourselves a favor and watch the entire thing. It's not about open carry but it's about why you don't want to talk to the police.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    Good post.

    I sometimes wonder if maybe people don't just skim through to get the "Cliff's Notes" version, rather than read the actually postings in their entirety.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    daniels wrote:
    Here is a VERY good video. Do yourselves a favor and watch the entire thing. It's not about open carry but it's about why you don't want to talk to the police.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    Good post.

    I sometimes wonder if maybe people don't just skim through to get the "Cliff's Notes" version, rather than read the actually postings in their entirety.
    They do. LOL I posted it on my motorcycle forum and not one of them watched the whole thing. Actually I think one said he watched in before and he ended up needing the info. in it one day and it really saved his butt. The other guys just complained about how long it was.

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    daniels wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    daniels wrote:
    Here is a VERY good video.┬* Do yourselves a favor and watch the entire thing.┬* It's not about open carry but it's about why you don't want to talk to the police.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    Good post.

    I sometimes wonder if maybe people don't just skim through to get the "Cliff's Notes" version, rather than read the actually postings in their entirety.
    They do. LOL┬* I posted it on my motorcycle forum and not one of them watched the whole thing.┬* Actually I think one said he watched in before and he ended up needing the info. in it one day and it really saved his butt.┬* The other guys just complained about how long it was.
    Geez the youth today.. glad my son isnt like that I would have to change that :?

    Thats why I tried to make it simple an to the point. Less words the better and more people will pay attention IMO.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    daniels wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    daniels wrote:
    Here is a VERY good video.┬* Do yourselves a favor and watch the entire thing.┬* It's not about open carry but it's about why you don't want to talk to the police.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
    Good post.

    I sometimes wonder if maybe people don't just skim through to get the "Cliff's Notes" version, rather than read the actually postings in their entirety.
    They do. LOL┬* I posted it on my motorcycle forum and not one of them watched the whole thing.┬* Actually I think one said he watched in before and he ended up needing the info. in it one day and it really saved his butt.┬* The other guys just complained about how long it was.
    Geez the youth today.. glad my son isnt like that I would have to change that :?

    Thats why I tried to make it simple an to the point. Less words the better and more people will pay attention IMO.
    The sad part is I think almost all of them are older than me. LOL I'm 31.

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    That video rocks. I have that on my ipod for those who get stuck riding with me for an hour, Ill put it on.

    It should be a part of the CPL classes.

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