No Shooting in the Back

Mainsail · Mar 17, 2010

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From the Appellate Court: (OK, where the hell is the URL code button?!?!!?)

http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/index.cfm?fa=opinions.showOpinion&filename=626965MAJ

The State charged Michael Relfe with assault in the first degree based on a road rage incident that began with an obscene gesture and ended in Relfe shooting James Lee. Relfe claimed that he acted in self-defense. A jury convicted Relfe as charged. Relfe appeals...**SNIP**

While they were stopped at a traffic light, Relfe and Lee exchanged obscene hand gestures. Lee was driving a flatbed truck, and Relfe was driving a small car. Lee sideswiped Relfe's car on the driver's side. In a taped statement to police, Relfe said that he followed Lee to get his license number. According to Relfe, they stopped on the side of the road three times during the pursuit and at each stop Lee got out of his truck, reached into Relfe's car, and physically assaulted him.

Relfe said that the last time, Lee "stuck half his body inside my car again and started manhandling, beating me, slapping me and hitting me. At which point, I had my revolver on the passenger seat and to protect myself, I was in fear of my life, I used it." When Lee saw the gun, he turned around and began to leave. Relfe fired one shot, hitting Lee in the back. Relfe told police that he intentionally shot Lee. He also stated that he felt threatened and that his intention was just to scare Lee. Relfe's statement included the following exchange:

DET: Now when you shot him, what was, what were your intentions when
you used your weapon?

[Relfe]: Just to scare him.
. . . .

DET: Okay when you shot your revolver, were you . . .

[Relfe]: I wasn't aimin at him.

DET: Okay.

[Relfe]: I was just, I just pointed it.

DET: You pointed it.

[Relfe]: Yeah.

DET: In his direction though.

[Relfe]: Well yeah, to scare him.

.45ACPaddy · Mar 17, 2010

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WTF! You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone. I know someone who once talked to me about getting a gun, and they said "You know, I think I'll just get a .22, you know, just to scare em if someone breaks in. I'll just aim for the knee or something cuz I don't wanna kill them." I told him that if his goal is to get put in prison and become someone's wife FAST, he's absolutely on the right track. I've since educated him that if he's gonna have something, it has to be something that will incapacitate fast, and to know that the bad guy dying is a very real possibility, and ONLY draw if in fear for his life.

This guy just screwed himself over, hard. I wouldn't have drawn, going by the blurb in the OP.

OrangeIsTrouble · Mar 17, 2010

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Forget scaring, this moron talked to the cops without a lawyer!
Now this moron will be in the pen sharing showers...

Aryk45XD · Mar 17, 2010

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What a complete idiot. I hope none of you are this dumb. The gun is scarry enough without shots fired "in your direction." Pulling the gun while you're being beat is one thing, but pointing it at someone while they're leaving just isn't necessary. Not that I would pull it to scare someone. If mine comes out, so is at least one shot. You don't practice to be fast for nothing and once you have the gun out, it isn't time to decide when to take the shot. That should be done way before you put your hand on it.

cynicist · Mar 17, 2010

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I don't think (from the part shown) that this means no shooting in the back ever.
It means that he didn't articulate that he was still a threat even with his back turned.
OR
That the discharge was accidental, though drawing was legit. There was another case in WA where the guy pleaded self-defense and accident to Assault 1 or Murder (don't remember which) where he shot someone who was messing with him while inside his car. He said he didn't mean to shoot, but it was self-defense anyway- won on appeal.
This is why you should NEVER talk to the cops without a lawyer, even if you've done nothing wrong.

Tawnos · Mar 18, 2010

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G22Paddy wrote:

WTF! You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone. I know someone who once talked to me about getting a gun, and they said "You know, I think I'll just get a .22, you know, just to scare em if someone breaks in. I'll just aim for the knee or something cuz I don't wanna kill them." I told him that if his goal is to get put in prison and become someone's wife FAST, he's absolutely on the right track. I've since educated him that if he's gonna have something, it has to be something that will incapacitate fast, and to know that the bad guy dying is a very real possibility, and ONLY draw if in fear for his life.

This guy just screwed himself over, hard. I wouldn't have drawn, going by the blurb in the OP.

He probably thought he was saying a good or exonerating thing to the cops, not realizing that they are not your friends.

oldkim · Mar 18, 2010

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He was also a "willing" participant - he followed the guy around, assaulted 3 times due to it and kept at it.

3 strikes!

1) Dumb - was going to scare him with a gun

2) Dumber - pointed the gun and talked to police in this situation he would of definitely done better by shutting his mouth.

3) kept pursuing the interaction and shot him in the back? When he's returning to his car?

Every shooting will have it's own circumstances. Overall, a shot in the back is pretty bad but each one has to be judged on it's own merits (or lack of).

amzbrady · Mar 18, 2010

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G22Paddy wrote:

WTF! You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone. I know someone who once talked to me about getting a gun, and they said "You know, I think I'll just get a .22, you know, just to scare em if someone breaks in. I'll just aim for the knee or something cuz I don't wanna kill them." I told him that if his goal is to get put in prison and become someone's wife FAST, he's absolutely on the right track. I've since educated him that if he's gonna have something, it has to be something that will incapacitate fast, and to know that the bad guy dying is a very real possibility, and ONLY draw if in fear for his life.

This guy just screwed himself over, hard. I wouldn't have drawn, going by the blurb in the OP.

I slightly disagree "You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone". If I am ever forced to draw my weapon, I hope and pray it scares them enough for them to run and I dont have to fire. I do how ever agree, get something bigger than a .22. First and foremost I hope and pray I never have to draw my weapon in the first place. IMO.

Tomas · Mar 18, 2010

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amzbrady wrote:

I slightly disagree "You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone". If I am ever forced to draw my weapon, I hope and pray it scares them enough for them to run and I dont have to fire. I do how ever agree, get something bigger than a .22. First and foremost I hope and pray I never have to draw my weapon in the first place. IMO.

+1 :?

Before I ever carried I went through the thought processes and decided that I indeed could shoot someone, kill them, with no warning and no delay. If one hasn't thought that through and made that decision, one has NO business carrying IMHO.

That being said, there is still always the hope that it will never be necessary, and that simply seeing the weapon will cause the other person to rapidly disappear over the horizon. If they do NOT, and they remain aggressive or make any attempt to attack or close the distance, they get rapid response to their center of mass.

One should never 'clear leather' solely with the intent to intimidate - one should have already made the decision to employ lethal force, BUT one needs to be ready to back off from that if the conditions change.

(Yes, I've in the past not followed my own advice. When I was visiting a friend and some idiot tried to break into her house, not knowing I was there. I had her call 911 and tell them that if the person made it in, one of the occupants was armed, while I waited, hoping the police were faster than he was. He got in the back sliding doors using a large screwdriver, and was cowering in the corner being stared at by my 9mm when the police arrived. The most frightening part was when the police entered the room, even after being told by the gal when she let them in that *I* was the one with the gun.)

amzbrady · Mar 18, 2010

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Welcome to OCDO Thomas. And yes that is the key, be ready to disengage if conditions change. If you draw ready to fire, and they say "OH SHIT" and run away, that is what I would be hoping for.

Bersa.380 · Mar 18, 2010

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Aryk45XD wrote:

What a complete idiot. I hope none of you are this dumb. The gun is scarry enough without shots fired "in your direction." Pulling the gun while you're being beat is one thing, but pointing it at someone while they're leaving just isn't necessary. Not that I would pull it to scare someone. If mine comes out, so is at least one shot. You don't practice to be fast for nothing and once you have the gun out, it isn't time to decide when to take the shot. That should be done way before you put your hand on it.

Check the law for yourself, I'm not a lawyer ....

I think it says once the threat STOPS you no longer have a right to shoot or persue .... once you do you becomethe bad guy and the other person has the right to defend themselves.

BigDave · Mar 18, 2010

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While I do not agree with shooting someone in the back it can occur while in the motion of employing your weapon.
When the gun becomes visible a person can turn 180 degrees with in 1/3 if a second about the same time it takes to decide to pull the trigger and pulling the trigger.

What is the most glaring issue in his statement to Law Enforcement.

DET: Now when you shot him, what was, what were your intentions when you used your weapon?

[Relfe]: Just to scare him. . . . .

DET: Okay when you shot your revolver, were you . . .

[Relfe]: I wasn't aimin at him.

DET: Okay.

[Relfe]: I was just, I just pointed it.

DET: You pointed it.

[Relfe]: Yeah.

DET: In his direction though.

[Relfe]: Well yeah, to scare him.

Look at his answers all of them was to scare, he was not in fear for his life, there was no imminent danger! which is required in the authorized use of deadly force.

RCW 9A.16.050 Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
There is instances that one could shoot someone in the back but one must be able to articulate the imminent threat still existed such as going for cover to return fire..., how ever you slice it, it will be a tough one to sell.

.45ACPaddy · Mar 19, 2010

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amzbrady wrote:

I slightly disagree "You NEVER draw to 'scare' someone". If I am ever forced to draw my weapon, I hope and pray it scares them enough for them to run and I dont have to fire.

I was talking about the overall goal when drawing a pistol. I don't have a gun to scare people, I have it to protect my life. In a public setting, if I have to draw, it's gotta be a life threatening situation. If one's life is not in immediate danger, they have no business drawing.

If the situation changes and they no longer are a threat, then the use of deadly force is no longer justifiable. In this case, no shot should be taken.

Beretta92FSLady · Mar 19, 2010

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Tomas wrote:

+1 :?

Before I ever carried I went through the thought processes and decided that I indeed could shoot someone, kill them, with no warning and no delay. If one hasn't thought that through and made that decision, one has NO business carrying IMHO.

That being said, there is still always the hope that it will never be necessary, and that simply seeing the weapon will cause the other person to rapidly disappear over the horizon. If they do NOT, and they remain aggressive or make any attempt to attack or close the distance, they get rapid response to their center of mass.

One should never 'clear leather' solely with the intent to intimidate - one should have already made the decision to employ lethal force, BUT one needs to be ready to back off from that if the conditions change.

I tell every person before they decide to carry or even use a firearm for home defense that they MUST have an open, honest discussion with themseves about whether they could use lethal force. The seperation that many people run into is the idea of using lethal force v. actual use of lethal force. The legal jeopardy a lawful use of lethal force places a person in is initially just the same as the legal jeopardy that an unlawful user is subject to. The emotional rammifications of shooting another human being, regardless whether they were attacking you is a difficult thing to work to and should not be taken lightley.

If the man had turned around I would like to know what the timeline was between the gun being drawn, the man turning his back and the gun being fired. If the man was 8 feet away then it was clear that the man was leaving but if the man was with his back turned away standing 1 or 2 feet away it is possible that there was merely a delay from the time it took the man to pull the trigger in response to attack....that beign said, the shooter got himself into some serious trouble flapping his lip and saying he just wanted to scare his attacker--that is as bad as saying you wanted to murder them.

Tomas · Mar 19, 2010

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Sylvia Plath wrote:

If the man had turned around I would like to know what the timeline was between the gun being drawn, the man turning his back and the gun being fired. If the man was 8 feet away then it was clear that the man was leaving but if the man was with his back turned away standing 1 or 2 feet away it is possible that there was merely a delay from the time it took the man to pull the trigger in response to attack....that beign said, the shooter got himself into some serious trouble flapping his lip and saying he just wanted to scare his attacker--that is as bad as saying you wanted to murder the

Another thing to consider is that an attacker can cross nearly seven yards of space in the time it takes to fire a weapon. (It always annoys me when TV and movies have the "good guy" standing so close to the "bad guy" with their firearm extended at the end of their arm so that it is often within arms length of, or even touching, the "bad guy." One DOES NOT do that!) :uhoh:

In training and in real life once trained I've always tried to remember to keep the bad guy far enough away and in an awkward enough position that I have adequate time to react to an attack and end it in my favor.

Beretta92FSLady · Mar 19, 2010

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Tomas wrote:

Another thing to consider is that an attacker can cross nearly seven yards of space in the time it takes to fire a weapon. (It always annoys me when TV and movies have the "good guy" standing so close to the "bad guy" with their firearm extended at the end of their arm so that it is often within arms length of, or even touching, the "bad guy." One DOES NOT do that!) :uhoh:

In training and in real life once trained I've always tried to remember to keep the bad guy far enough away and in an awkward enough position that I have adequate time to react to an attack and end it in my favor.

I would recommend for anyone who is carrying to not only target shoot but also run scenerios with a friend where the friend is coming at you and the steps you take to draw your handgun...what to say, all of that. *unloaded gun is a no brainer people LOL when practicing these things*

I think it is hard for people to realize just how quickly 20 feet can be covered. Even when they are told it is two seconds. Seconds go by so fast in the moment.

amzbrady · Mar 19, 2010

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Sylvia Plath wrote:

Tomas wrote:

Another thing to consider is that an attacker can cross nearly seven yards of space in the time it takes to fire a weapon. (It always annoys me when TV and movies have the "good guy" standing so close to the "bad guy" with their firearm extended at the end of their arm so that it is often within arms length of, or even touching, the "bad guy." One DOES NOT do that!) :uhoh:

In training and in real life once trained I've always tried to remember to keep the bad guy far enough away and in an awkward enough position that I have adequate time to react to an attack and end it in my favor.

Click to expand...

I would recommend for anyone who is carrying to not only target shoot but also run scenerios with a friend where the friend is coming at you and the steps you take to draw your handgun...what to say, all of that. *unloaded gun is a no brainer people LOL when practicing these things*

I think it is hard for people to realize just how quickly 20 feet can be covered. Even when they are told it is two seconds. Seconds go by so fast in the moment.

It would be awesome to have a range with a safe house to practice clearing rooms like on Best Defense on the outdoor channel. Outside shooting also allows you to shoot while on the move and while heading for cover. I've also been shooting left handed just for practice.

PT111 · Mar 20, 2010

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oldkim wrote:

He was also a "willing" participant - he followed the guy around, assaulted 3 times due to it and kept at it.

3 strikes!

1) Dumb - was going to scare him with a gun

2) Dumber - pointed the gun and talked to police in this situation he would of definitely done better by shutting his mouth.

3) kept pursuing the interaction and shot him in the back? When he's returning to his car?

Every shooting will have it's own circumstances. Overall, a shot in the back is pretty bad but each one has to be judged on it's own merits (or lack of).

+1

Three times at least he had the chance to leave (unless I am reading this wrong) and three times he stopped to take a beating. The last time he pulls out his gun and soots him in the back. He had a gun on his seat for protection!!! A lot of good it did in protecting him. I really hate to hear people say they are getting a gun for protection. The only way it is going to protect you is if you get enough of them to make a suit of armor out of them. Not only did the gun not protect him but put him in a world of hurt with the legal system and resulted in the death of another person. Your brain is your number one defense tool for protection and this fellow did not use his at all. In this case just based on the info available he is guilty of stupidity as well as the other charges. If you are involved in a road rage incident don't stop and let the person beat on you three times.

1245A Defender · Mar 20, 2010

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If you are involved in a road rage incident don't stop and let the person beat on you three times. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

you are right in that!!!! :celebrate :celebrate :celebrate

No Shooting in the Back

Mainsail

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