Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 52

Thread: OC On a Bicycle W/O CPL

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    If someone don`t have a CPL can they ride a Bicycle OCing?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Police State, USA
    Posts
    1,270

    Post imported post

    There is no case law... and the definition of 'vehicle' is not the same across MCL code...

    So if you want to be the test case, we'd all love you for it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    It's not a motor vehicle, it's fine.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-750-227

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    There is no case law... and the definition of 'vehicle' is not the same across MCL code...

    So if you want to be the test case, we'd all love you for it.
    I am sure you guys would love to find out, But I am not going to risk losing everything that I have.

    I am looking for a YES OR NO answer, Not looking for a Grey Area.

  5. #5
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    942

    Post imported post


  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    Section 750.227c linkable printable





    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).
    Sec. 227c.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
    (3) This section does not apply to a person who violates section 10(1)(g) of chapter II of Act No. 286 of the Public Acts of 1929, as amended, being section 312.10 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

    © 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


    I do not believe you pedaling a bicyle would count as mechanical.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rochester Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    338

    Post imported post

    Actually, "vehicle" is clearly defined in Michigan Law under MCL 257.79:

    "257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79. “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of 1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws."

    I highlighted the most important part of this section as relates to this thread. Bicycle is a device that is moved exclusively by human power. So, it is clearly not a "vehicle" under Michigan Law. It is clear to me that OC while riding a bicycle without CPL is just fine since you are not in, on or upon a "vehicle" as legally defined.Now, motorcycle is a different story. This is I agree is a grey area.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Police State, USA
    Posts
    1,270

    Post imported post

    ...although, a bicycle is 'chain drive'... much like a motorcycle... what isn't mechanical about gears pulling chains?

    Just saying.

    There is no yes or no answer Wally, that would be 100% certain. This is why I did not give you one.

    Mike Cox's list of things to fix:

    ...
    ...
    126. Define a Vehicle as pertains to Firearms Carry
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ETA:
    Sasha, the two laws, the one posted above and yours, contradict each other.

    Which one would the judge use?

    Does one take precedence over the other?

  9. #9
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    wally1120 wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    There is no case law... and the definition of 'vehicle' is not the same across MCL code...

    So if you want to be the test case, we'd all love you for it.
    I am sure you guys would love to find out, But I am not going to risk losing everything that I have.

    I am looking for a YES OR NO answer, Not looking for a Grey Area.
    It doesn't matter what you're looking for, it's a gray area like many laws and life in general.

    Today you learned something

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    I am not going to test the waters, I will wait till I have my CPL and be able to do alot more things. I don`t want to be the one that ends up getting socked with something that no one knew about.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rochester Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    338

    Post imported post

    The answer is clearly "yes", OC on a bicycle is fine based on information at hand. Common guys, at some point, when evidence is clear,we just should not to be afraid to draw a clear conclusion

  12. #12
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    sasha601 wrote:
    The answer is clearly "yes", OC on a bicycle is fine based on information at hand. Common guys, at some point, when evidence is clear,we just should not to be afraid to draw a clear conclusion
    So you wish to give advice that might get someone in a world of crap.

    Not the best thing to do.

    Lets say someone takes your advice and a cop writes them for it and a judge agrees and the appeals court agrees and this person is stuck with a felony for the rest of their life, hows that gunna make you feel?

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern lower & Keweenaw area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    667

    Post imported post

    Like "crap" as well. I saw on Fox News several days ago, that a guy is spending some time in the graybar hotel for "practicing law" w/o a license. Try to be the nice guy and see what happens.springerdave.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat,or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.


    Maybe it's me but that sounds like you can carry in vehicles. Why can't laws be written plainly....


  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    The Government was the one to write this stuff, And you think the Government wants to make things easy for civilians?

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    It's not a motor vehicle, it's fine.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-750-227
    Aaaah were does it say motor vehicle in this statute? The fact is this topic has been discussed to death and the consensus is that it's a gray area. The firearm statute doesn't define what a vehicle is.

    You can not use the definition of one statute and apply it to another. Therefore you have to go to the dictionary and most definitions of vehicles is something used to convey people or goods overland. A bicycle would fit that definition.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    wally1120 wrote:
    The Government was the one to write this stuff, And you think the Government wants to make things easy for citizens?
    Fixed spelling mistake :P

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    Section 750.227c linkable printable





    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).
    Sec. 227c.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
    (3) This section does not apply to a person who violates section 10(1)(g) of chapter II of Act No. 286 of the Public Acts of 1929, as amended, being section 312.10 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982

    © 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


    I do not believe you pedaling a bicycle would count as mechanical.

    A bicycle is propelled by a person not a motor or any other mechanics. Gears canincrease a persons torque, but not propel the machine. This is all IMO, but I would be willing to put this to the test.

    Disagree? then ride a scooter or skateboard etc, but stay away from hills, they might count gravity as a mechanical propellant.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    There is no case law... and the definition of 'vehicle' is not the same across MCL code...

    So if you want to be the test case, we'd all love you for it.
    There is case law for motorcycles, and what constitute's "in."

    A bicycle isn't that far off. I wouldn't recommend it.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    It's not a motor vehicle, it's fine.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-750-227
    The law does not say motor vehicle. It just says vehicle. As the term "Vehicle" is not defined in statute, the court may define it themselves.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    129

    Post imported post

    I am not sure why 750.227c is even being quoted. It clearly states that it does not apply to pistols. "Other than a Pistol"

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    Looks like I need to clarify here.

    The relevant law is this one:

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    There is case law for what constitutes "in" for the purposes of this statute. The courts have determined that something is "in" a vehicle if it is being transported by the vehicle, or in its state is able to be transported by that vehicle. So if you tie it to a string and drag it behind you, it's in the vehicle.

    There is no definition of "Vehicle" for this statute, therefore the courts may decide that for themselves. A bicycle is EASILY determined to be a human-powered vehicle.

    I say don't carry without a CPL. Do it at your own risk. You're risking 5 years of your life and $2500 of your money plus legal fees.

  23. #23
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Looks like I need to clarify here.

    The relevant law is this one:

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    There is case law for what constitutes "in" for the purposes of this statute. The courts have determined that something is "in" a vehicle if it is being transported by the vehicle, or in its state is able to be transported by that vehicle. So if you tie it to a string and drag it behind you, it's in the vehicle.

    There is no definition of "Vehicle" for this statute, therefore the courts may decide that for themselves. A bicycle is EASILY determined to be a human-powered vehicle.

    I say don't carry without a CPL. Do it at your own risk. You're risking 5 years of your life and $2500 of your money plus legal fees.
    and a life long FELONY!

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    I am wanting to make things right on what happened on OCDO a while back ago regarding Joe_Robi. I realize I did say some pretty harsh words regarding the fact, And I want to apologize to Joe,Doug for coming at them the way that I did, And also for Everyone that read what I had posted.

  25. #25
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    wally1120 wrote:
    I am wanting to make things right on what happened on OCDO a while back ago regarding Joe_Robi. I realize I did say some pretty harsh words regarding the fact, And I want to apologize to Joe,Doug for coming at them the way that I did, And also for Everyone that read what I had posted.

    Apology accepted.




Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •