Who are you willing to defend?

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If you carry every day like I do, I'm sure you've run the scenarios in your mind. What if someone comes into the store or restaurant and starts shooting people for sport? Will you find a way to bug out, or further risk your life confronting him (them)? Who is with you? Where is cover? Who has the phone?

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Each situation is different, do the right thing at the time.

OPS MARINE wrote:

If you carry every day like I do, I'm sure you've run the scenarios in your mind. What if someone comes into the store or restaurant and starts shooting people for sport? Will you find a way to bug out, or further risk your life confronting him (them)? Who is with you? Where is cover? Who has the phone?

Click to expand...

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As Marines, we were taught to improvise and adapt. Every situation will be different. Be aware of your surroundings.

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OPS MARINE wrote:

If you carry every day like I do, I'm sure you've run the scenarios in your mind. What if someone comes into the store or restaurant and starts shooting people for sport? Will you find a way to bug out, or further risk your life confronting him (them)? Who is with you? Where is cover? Who has the phone?

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Looking at previous experiences intervening in non-lethal or potentially lethal (no firearms) situations I would probably (within the space of a few seconds) assess the unique situation that it is taking into consideration:

* everyone involved
* everyone who could get involved
* potential problem people
* people who have that "I'll help" look in their eyes
* people who could be working with the subject
* potential escape routes
* is escape possible
* potential movement routes for the subject
* biohazards - blood, vomit, etc.
* potential weak points in the subject (everyone has at least one)
* the apparent skill level of the threat
* potential threat suppression routes for me
* ways to distract the threat
* obstacles
* cover
* concealment
* backstop
* potential weapons available to anyone present including me
* what level of force from words and body language to weapons might be required
* have I read the situation correctly or is this an act of self defense or law enforcement?
* am I ready to roll?

Then its decision time...

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jdoe wrote:

OPS MARINE wrote:

If you carry every day like I do, I'm sure you've run the scenarios in your mind. What if someone comes into the store or restaurant and starts shooting people for sport? Will you find a way to bug out, or further risk your life confronting him (them)? Who is with you? Where is cover? Who has the phone?

Click to expand...

Looking at previous experiences intervening in non-lethal or potentially lethal (no firearms) situations I would probably (within the space of a few seconds) assess the unique situation that it is taking into consideration:

* everyone involved
* everyone who could get involved
* potential problem people
* people who have that "I'll help" look in their eyes
* people who could be working with the subject
* potential escape routes
* is escape possible
* potential movement routes for the subject
* biohazards - blood, vomit, etc.
* potential weak points in the subject (everyone has at least one)
* the apparent skill level of the threat
* potential threat suppression routes for me
* ways to distract the threat
* obstacles
* cover
* concealment
* backstop
* potential weapons available to anyone present including me
* what level of force from words and body language to weapons might be required
* have I read the situation correctly or is this an act of self defense or law enforcement?
* am I ready to roll?

Then its decision time...

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I think if someone came into the restaurant or store where I was UOCing, and started shooting people for "SPORT"... I'd be locking and loading to take the bastard out to minimize his murdering.

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Sport is one thing, robbery is another. For sport, sure I might react. For a robbery I might, if capable load and wait.

Either case is mute for me at this point since I am prohibited.

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robbery yeah wait till he leaves. preventing a hostage situation.

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There is only one reason I carry: Defense of life and liberty.

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Whoever is standing next to me that could be a target, I don't want to be shot by accident (or on purpose).

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That's a difficult question to answer. I have the notion that I will not know unless a situation arises which causes me to chamber a round. In this situation I believe that circumstances will dictate my reaction.

I don't pretend to know with any certainty how I will react. I have determined that It would be the highest priority to first protect myself, If I don't who will do anything. Thereafter I would take the greatest risks to protect family and friends who may be with me. Next, innocent bystanders in as much as I felt I could depending on the risk."God please help me to be fast and accurate" Mel Gibson, the Patriot.

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"Chamber a round" - i forgot, you guys can't carry one in the chamber I carry pretty much nationwide with a chambered round

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1. Myself
2. My family
3. My friends and associates
4. Children, elderly, handicapped, and visibly pregnant women, since they probably can't do it for themselves. Note that if you LOOK over 18, or don't LOOK handicapped or pregnant, you don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Given today's legal system (note that I didn't say JUSTICE system), I find it ludicrous that a complete stranger, who has taken no steps to protect themselves in a dangerous world, would expect me to risk life, limb, property and my future in order to do so for them. If you are a grown man or woman, don't expect me to do more than call 911 and be a good witness to what is happening to you. If the threat turns in MY direction, now it's on...

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Pace wrote:

"Chamber a round" - i forgot, you guys can't carry one in the chamber I carry pretty much nationwide with a chambered round

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It only hurts when I laugh,I am used to carryingan M9with one in the pipe and anM4, 30round magand that's on a quiet night. Or carryingwith a concealpermit :banghead:

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johnfenter wrote:

1. Myself
2. My family
3. My friends and associates
4. Children, elderly, handicapped, and visibly pregnant women, since they probably can't do it for themselves. Note that if you LOOK over 18, or don't LOOK handicapped or pregnant, you don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Given today's legal system (note that I didn't say JUSTICE system), I find it ludicrous that a complete stranger, who has taken no steps to protect themselves in a dangerous world, would expect me to risk life, limb, property and my future in order to do so for them. If you are a grown man or woman, don't expect me to do more than call 911 and be a good witness to what is happening to you. If the threat turns in MY direction, now it's on...

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Unarmed person who does not fall into category #4 is being held at gunpoint and robbed. Obviously a life-threatening situation. You would be well within the law to chamber a round and detain the offender and/or act in defense of life.

You're armed and watch the whole thing happen. You let him walk and just "be a good witness"?

Let's add a cherry on top -- you watch the robber shoot the unarmed person (exempt from category #4) point blank.

Still just observe and report?

At what point do you feel morally obligated to help your fellow man?

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At what point did he/she decide to be unarmed and walk around in Condition White all the time? Mind you, I do feel a moral obligation to help folks; I've given folks jump starts, helped them change flat tires, let them sit in my truck with the heat on in the winter until the tow truck gets there, performed first aid on the injured, etc. But those were low risk evolutions not only in terms of physical harm but also legal consequence. Getting involved in a violent assault, rape, robbery, or confrontation is fraught with both physical and legal peril, and you may not fully understand the situation; you might identify the wrong people as assailants. You may be able to control the situation as far as physical harm to yourself; but you CANNOT control the legal aftermath. I'm sorry that it has come to this, but the lawyers have made it very risky to exercise your "moral obligations". And I repeat; what about the "victim's" moral obligation to take care of him/her self, thus negating the need for anyone else to risk anything to help them?

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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

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johnfenter wrote:

At what point did he/she decide to be unarmed and walk around in Condition White all the time? Mind you, I do feel a moral obligation to help folks; I've given folks jump starts, helped them change flat tires, let them sit in my truck with the heat on in the winter until the tow truck gets there, performed first aid on the injured, etc. But those were low risk evolutions not only in terms of physical harm but also legal consequence. Getting involved in a violent assault, rape, robbery, or confrontation is fraught with both physical and legal peril, and you may not fully understand the situation; you might identify the wrong people as assailants. You may be able to control the situation as far as physical harm to yourself; but you CANNOT control the legal aftermath. I'm sorry that it has come to this, but the lawyers have made it very risky to exercise your "moral obligations". And I repeat; what about the "victim's" moral obligation to take care of him/her self, thus negating the need for anyone else to risk anything to help them?

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I would never suggest outside of the obvious that anyone on this forum or anywhere else jump into a situation without first assessing. If what you see is without a doubt a rather serious assault, and it is terribly clear that the person being assaulted is in no physical, mental, or reasonable condition to defend themselves, then you've got to do something (provided you are close enough).

Perhaps one could start by using voice commands, and really listen to and observe the response. Gauge others' responses or non-responses to the situation and maybe judge the level of your involvement that way. Watch for the behavior of the person/people being assaulted. What are their arms, hands and legs doing? Are they ducking? Making attempts to escape, or fight back?

A great deal of these conditions can be observed in fractions of a second, but there are times when it should be suggested that one take one or two full seconds to be sure. If you are incorrect, let it be. If there is a threat, hopefully turn the fear into motivation and stop it.

Rules of engagement, availability of resources, options and backup are both different and limited in the civilian environment, and this will be a point of consternation until the laws change. Great care should be taken. Stay safe.

"Most people respect the badge. Everybody respects the gun."

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johnfenter wrote:

At what point did he/she decide to be unarmed and walk around in Condition White all the time?

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+1

I'm not a big believer in "moral obligation" or "social propriety" or "political correctness." The reason I mention all three of these is becuase I'm willing to bet most of us view this differently. Well I see them as all equals. They're all cultural memes that others use to dictate how we should act as individuals.

I believe it is honorable to be willing to risk your life, liberty, and your family's financial ruin to assist the random sheeple. However, to say I am somehow obligated to risk the same is beyond reason. Unless I've agreed to it, I don't owe anybody anything - woman, child, pregnant, invalid... I didn't agree to be caregiver for any of them.

However, I equally realize there are consequences for inaction. I've watched someone die before. There was nothing I could do, but I imagine the lingering consequences of the experience would be worse if my inaction had been a factor in her death.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

johnfenter wrote:

At what point did he/she decide to be unarmed and walk around in Condition White all the time?

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+1

I'm not a big believer in "moral obligation" or "social propriety" or "political correctness." The reason I mention all three of these is becuase I'm willing to bet most of us view this differently. Well I see them as all equals. They're all cultural memes that others use to dictate how we should act as individuals.

I believe it is honorable to be willing to risk your life, liberty, and your family's financial ruin to assist the random sheeple. However, to say I am somehow obligated to risk the same is beyond reason. Unless I've agreed to it, I don't owe anybody anything - woman, child, pregnant, invalid... I didn't agree to be caregiver for any of them.

However, I equally realize there are consequences for inaction. I've watched someone die before. There was nothing I could do, but I imagine the lingering consequences of the experience would be worse if my inaction had been a factor in her death.

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I agree with you, in the aspect that "I don't owe anybody anything", yet I think that if you were in NEED of the help, you'd appreciate a knight.

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PincheOgro1 wrote:

I agree with you, in the aspect that "I don't owe anybody anything", yet I think that if you were in NEED of the help, you'd appreciate a knight.

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Appreciate, yes. Expect, no.

I would feel no ill will toward any person who chose to do nothing when I needed help. If my car gets a flat tire, I don't get mad at every person who drives by rather than stopping to change my tire (I'm practically disabled, so changing a tire is rather difficult for me).

Why? Because I realize the only person that has an obligation to change my tire is the tow truck driver contracted through my road-side service agreement.

Of course I would appreciate if someone pulled over and offered to help, though.