View Poll Results: How many OC Handcuffs?

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Thread: OCing at the Capitol Rally today.

  1. #1
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    I didn't get to say hello to you, but thanks for OCing, some people from Germany they were taking pictures of you.

    This guy was carrying handcuffs, how many people carry handcuffs? Me, personally I am not trained to put someone in handcuffs. I was watching COPS the another night and it took 4 cops to handcuff this little mexican dude! Who was yelling Puto, Puto to the Cops, I was laughing so hard!
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    I was there OC'ing, no handcuffs though.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    It was me thanks for noticing Black shirt vest and jeans black combat boots.
    Zach
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    I open carried fishing today.

    Course the japanese tourists weren't lookin at the gun when we left, they were lookin at the fish.

    Caught our limit.

  5. #5
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    Unless someone is just advertising their taste for B&D (and if I have not been misinformed, cuffs carried for that purpose are not readily available for quick deployment), I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone other than a cop or security guard type would carry handcuffs. I don't intend to apprehend anyone.

    I intend to go home in one piece. Ideally, the bad guy decides I'm not worth the risk and I never even know there was a threat. Next best outcome is for the BG to turn tail and run. If he'd like to wet himself and flop down and ground I'll probably hang around until the cops show up, but I'll be keeping my distance and keeping him in my sights until they do. No way I see any benefit in trying to handcuff someone.

    Last on the list, of course, is some BG is REALLY, REALLY stupid; in which case he develops some serious health problems and I develop some (hopefully short term) legal issues to sort through with the aid of my lawyer. But in any event, I intend to go home safely.

    But apprehending BGs is not on my list of things to do.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Agreed

    I carry handcuffs for a few reasons

    1st) It is a option I can use if a firearm is not warranted. In the event I have a individual who trespassed on my property. I also can think of a few times where the option of a citizens arrest is a better option then the person leaving the situation.

    2) It puts people minds at ease when they see the Mag/Handcuff combo accompanied by my firearm.

    3) I have sufficient training to carry handcuffs and have been taught to carry how I was train.

    4) It is a great option then lethal force when the sight of a firearm was enough to stop the threat. IE Robbery, Assault the examples could go on

    5) I was taught once a suspect was shot you handcuffed the suspect till you can verify the threat is stopped.

    Again it is my choice to be proactive and it does no harm in me carry handcuffs and a spare magazine with me.

    What may be right for me may not be right for you. This has been my open carry set up for years and I am comfortable with my set up.

    Thanks
    Zach
    Zach
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  7. #7
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    It was me thanks for noticing Black shirt vest and jeans black combat boots.
    Then it was you, I was the guy with the big mouth, so I was CCing today. Big Angry guy with a gun is not a good idea!
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  8. #8
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    What may be right for me may not be right for you. This has been my open carry set up for years and I am comfortable with my set up.

    Thanks
    Zach
    No one is Judging you my brother, we are all "Sick Twisted Freaks!" jk lol
    I was just interested in how many people carry them. My non-carrying friends ask me the same question about me carrying a gun every where I go! To each his own!

    Carry on! :celebrate
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  9. #9
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    Pistol Pete Utah wrote:
    This guy was carrying handcuffs, how many people carry handcuffs? Me, personally I am not trained to put someone in handcuffs. I was watching COPS the another night and it took 4 cops to handcuff this little mexican dude! Who was yelling Puto, Puto to the Cops, I was laughing so hard!
    I am trained to handcuff someone, and if I might have thought about carrying cuffs, my training convinced me otherwise.

    Unless the person you're cuffing chooses to be compliant and to remain compliant, it is not possible for a single person to apply the cuffs. To do it with any kind of safety requires at least two trained people. One to cuff the suspect and another in overwatch position, with a firearm.

    My goal isn't to arrest or detain anyone, but if somehow I find myself in a situation where I have to do it, I'll just hold them at gunpoint from a safe distance, spread-eagled on the ground, palms up, and wait for the police.

    That will leave me in a slightly risky position when the police arrive, but there are ways to mitigate that risk and it's smaller than trying to cuff somebody by myself.

  10. #10
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    ...
    I carry handcuffs for a few reasons

    1st) It is a option I can use if a firearm is not warranted. In the event I have a individual who trespassed on my property. I also can think of a few times where the option of a citizens arrest is a better option then the person leaving the situation.

    2) It puts people minds at ease when they see the Mag/Handcuff combo accompanied by my firearm.

    3) I have sufficient training to carry handcuffs and have been taught to carry how I was train.

    4) It is a great option then lethal force when the sight of a firearm was enough to stop the threat. IE Robbery, Assault the examples could go on

    5) I was taught once a suspect was shot you handcuffed the suspect till you can verify the threat is stopped.

    Zach,

    To each his own. But as swillden points out, it seems pretty risky to needlessly get close enough to cuff someone, especially if you are alone.

    #1, I'd want to be VERY up on the laws and rules for "citizens' arrest" before risking an aggravated kidnapping charge. If you hold someone against his will, and it was not justified, and you had a firearm in plain sight, that is aggravated kidnapping which is a felony. It is one thing to risk a felony when I sincerely believe my life is at risk and deadly force is necessary and justified to protect that life or limb. It is quite another to risk a felony over something like simple trespassing.

    #2, Looks like you may be willing to give people the impression you are a cop. Not technically impersonating, but a little closer to that than I care to be.

    #3,4, and 5 all seem to have the risk of trying to cuff a potentially non-compliant person. I just don't see any advantage to closing the distance. And since I'm not a cop, I don't see "suspects," just "bad guys who pose an immediate and grave threat to my life or limb." If a bad guy wants to run away, great. The threat is over and nobody got shot. If he's been shot and can't (or won't) move, I intend to seek cover and keep him in my sights until the pros arrive.

    I mean to each his own, but if a "non-lethal" option is to be carried, and one has training, I should think a baton, pepper-spray, etc would all be far better uses of the weight and space on the belt than would cuffs. But then, each of those items is actually a weapon designed to end a threat rather than a restraint designed to hold someone captive.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    ...
    I carry handcuffs for a few reasons

    1st)* It is a option I can use if a firearm is not warranted.* In the event I have a individual who trespassed on my property.* I also can think of a few times where the option of a citizens arrest is a better option then the person leaving the situation.

    2) It puts people minds at ease when they see the Mag/Handcuff combo accompanied by my firearm.

    3) I have sufficient training to carry handcuffs and have been taught to carry how I was train.*

    4) It is a great option then lethal force when the sight of a firearm was enough to stop the threat.* IE Robbery, Assault the examples could go on

    5) I was taught once a suspect was shot you handcuffed the suspect till you can verify the threat is stopped.

    Zach,

    To each his own.* But as swillden points out, it seems pretty risky to needlessly get close enough to cuff someone, especially if you are alone.

    #1, I'd want to be VERY up on the laws and rules for "citizens' arrest" before risking an aggravated kidnapping charge.* If you hold someone against his will, and it was not justified, and you had a firearm in plain sight, that is aggravated kidnapping which is a felony.* It is one thing to risk a felony when I sincerely believe my life is at risk and deadly force is necessary and justified to protect that life or limb.** It is quite another to risk a felony over something like simple trespassing.

    #2, Looks like you may be willing to give people the impression you are a cop.* Not technically impersonating, but a little closer to that than I care to be.

    #3,4, and 5 all seem to have the risk of trying to cuff a potentially non-compliant person.* I just don't see any advantage to closing the distance.* And since I'm not a cop, I don't see "suspects," just "bad guys who pose an immediate and grave threat to my life or limb."* If a bad guy wants to run away, great. The threat is over and nobody got shot. * If he's been shot and can't (or won't) move, I intend to seek cover and keep him in my sights until the pros arrive.

    I mean to each his own, but if a "non-lethal" option is to be carried, and one has training, I should think a baton, pepper-spray, etc would all be far better uses of the weight and space on the belt than would cuffs.* But then, each of those items is actually a weapon designed to end a threat rather than a restraint designed to hold someone captive.

    Charles
    I have a very hard time seeing any error in the this thinking. +1

  12. #12
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    #1, I'd want to be VERY up on the laws and rules for "citizens' arrest" before risking an aggravated kidnapping charge.
    No argument with any of your post, really, but just one comment about this part: The laws about citizen's arrest are actually extremely simple.

    If a person commits any crime in your presence you are authorized to effect an arrest (77-7-3). If the crime is a felony, the standard is a little lower than "in your presence", but it's also fuzzier, so I wouldn't go there.

    You are allowed to physically restrain the person you've arrested, but no more than is necessary to detain him (77-7-1).

    You are allowed to search the person and seize any weapons he has on or about his person (77-7-9).

    You are NOT allowed to use deadly force to effect the arrest. That means you cannot threaten him with your gun. If you did, I don't think it would be an aggravated kidnapping charge (assuming he committed a crime in your presence, making the detention legal), but it could be aggravated assault. You also may not use unreasonable force (77-7-7).

    That's what the law says.

    As for me, if the guy is willing and able to run away... good riddance. I'll try to be a good witness. If I have time and opportunity, maybe I'll even snap a picture with my phone. But unless there's some reason to believe he's leaving to get reinforcements, the sooner he's away from me and mine the better.

  13. #13
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    swillden wrote:
    No argument with any of your post, really, but just one comment about this part: The laws about citizen's arrest are actually extremely simple.

    ...

    You are NOT allowed to use deadly force to effect the arrest. That means you cannot threaten him with your gun. If you did, I don't think it would be an aggravated kidnapping charge (assuming he committed a crime in your presence, making the detention legal), but it could be aggravated assault. You also may not use unreasonable force (77-7-7).

    That's what the law says.

    As for me, if the guy is willing and able to run away... good riddance. I'll try to be a good witness. If I have time and opportunity, maybe I'll even snap a picture with my phone. But unless there's some reason to believe he's leaving to get reinforcements, the sooner he's away from me and mine the better.
    Thanks.

    I believe aggravated assault is also a felony. So someone effecting a citizen's arrest while OCing is risking lifetime loss of RKBA. Like I said, that seems a high risk for something that I don't think present imminent harm to my life and limb.

    I'm with you. The bad guy leaving is really the best possible outcome other than him never coming around in the first place. I'm just not going to try to restrain someone.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  14. #14
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    I believe aggravated assault is also a felony.* So someone effecting a citizen's arrest while OCing is risking lifetime loss of RKBA.
    Aggravated assault is a felony, but I think a prosecutor would have a very hard time convincing a jury that mere OC constitutes a threat with a deadly weapon, unless the defense attorney was utterly incompetent, or unless the bad guy could convince the jury that you did make threats (and, absent an audio recording, that's possible).

    But even with everything on your side, a DA with a chip on his shoulder could indict you and drag you into court, costing you a lot of money.

  15. #15
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    swillden wrote:
    But even with everything on your side, a DA with a chip on his shoulder could indict you and drag you into court, costing you a lot of money.
    Yup. I'm told that even the "friends and family" rate for a basic felony defense STARTS at about $10,000 and goes up quickly.

    And let us remember, a DA can charge with a felony and then offer a plea deal down to something that would look pretty bad, except in comparison to a felony. A defendant is left with the choice to spend a lot of money fighting a felony conviction, hoping to be acquitted but risking lifetime loss of RKBA and jail time, OR he can accept a plea deal to something that will "just" cost him a fine and his carry permit for 5 or 10 years.

    Bottom line, attempting to "apprehend a 'suspect'" looks to be carry a lot of very serious risks--easily avoidable bodily injury as well as legal trouble--compared to merely "ending a threat from a 'bad guy' intent on causing serious harm to my life or limb".

    In the heat of a moment when someone has damaged or stolen property, or even threatened you, it might be easy to forget the whole cost-benefit equation of various actions. There is nothing wrong with wanting to see some scum sucking smash and grab criminal standing before a judge.

    But as I think you and I are agreed, a few moments of careful consideration before hand makes clear that there are serious risks to trying to effect a citizen's arrest. I'm just having a hard time coming up with a scenario where the benefits to taking those risks would outweigh the potential costs.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    But as I think you and I are agreed, a few moments of careful consideration before hand makes clear that there are serious risks to trying to effect a citizen's arrest. I'm just having a hard time coming up with a scenario where the benefits to taking those risks would outweigh the potential costs.
    It would make sense if letting the BG go might create greater danger, either because of the path he'd have to take or because of what he might be able to do after he leaves your control.

    I can't think of any situations in which it makes sense to approach and try to handcuff the BG, even in the rare situation where it makes sense to hold him. If the police are going to arrive quickly I'd rather just hold him at gunpoint until they arrive to take charge. If we're out in the boonies where I don't have police support, I really don't want to take the risk of him injuring me if I get close, and I don't want to get my gun within his reach either.

  17. #17
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    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.
    Now that's an idea!
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  19. #19
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    jaredbelch wrote:
    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.
    Why would he do it? Remember that you can't use deadly force, meaning you can't threaten to shoot him.

  20. #20
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    swillden wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.
    Why would he do it? Remember that you can't use deadly force, meaning you can't threaten to shoot him.
    The comment was made in jest.

  21. #21
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    jaredbelch wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.*
    Why would he do it?* Remember that you can't use deadly force, meaning you can't threaten to shoot him.
    The comment was made in jest.
    I know, but it was one that I thought some people might take seriously, in spite of the smiley.

  22. #22
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    swillden wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    You could always toss him the cuffs and have him cuff himself.
    Why would he do it? Remember that you can't use deadly force, meaning you can't threaten to shoot him.
    The comment was made in jest.
    I know, but it was one that I thought some people might take seriously, in spite of the smiley.
    Good call.

  23. #23
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    In the event you have to escalate to deadly force on the force continuum you have surpassed the Hands on aspect and moving to deadly force.

    On can reasonably argue the BG has already committed a crime. In the event your firearm deescalates the situation assuming the BG has committed a crime to draw your firearm in the first place. So putting Handcuffs on a person should not have any legal implications then pulling a firearm on a person.

    So it comes down to personal preference and how comfortable you feel carrying handcuffs. Is it illegal immoral or wrong for anyone to carry Handcuffs.

    Perception is also a big role I dress nicely treat people fairly and for the most part very approachable to the public. One could argue minus the handcuffs carrying my firearm make me look like a LEO I tell people all the time I am not and never lead people to believe other wise.


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  24. #24
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    So putting Handcuffs on a person should not have any legal implications then pulling a firearm on a person.
    Shouldn't. But that doesn't mean you can't get arrested and charged for it. It's important to realize that while you can absolutely use deadly force to stop a threat, you can NOT use deadly force to make an arrest. If the BG believes you are threatening to shoot him if he doesn't submit to the arrest you may be committing aggravated assault, even after you just drew down on him, or even shot him, with perfect justification!

    But I don't worry so much about the legal risk, I worry about the physical danger. Getting close to the bad guy while you cuff him. The reason you carry a gun is so that you can apply force from a distance, but now you're going to give up that advantage and get up close and personal?

    What do you do with your gun while you approach? And how do you convince the guy to let you cuff him? Legalities aside, in practice you can't hold your gun on him and cuff him at the same time.

    I suppose if you want to carry cuffs as a fashion statement, that's your call, but I don't see any practical value to it. Other than making yourself look like a LEO, which is of dubious value.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    Dang I wish I could have gone. I am new to OC and wish to find others to share the joy in.

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