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Thread: firearms training

  1. #1
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    Had a few people ask me about my firearms training, and my training with various special forces. I couldn't find much about the Systema Spetznatz gun training, but here is a great video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1oOM1Minh4

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    Garbage.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    idk, the Spetznaz seem to be more accurate in shooting than our Green Berets, from a rather silly bit on spike tv. Could be something to it.

    Edit: Here's the link to the show, take what you like from it. Bear in mind it IS sensationalized for ratings, but regardless the Spetznaz seemed good in it. http://www.spike.com/full-episode/green-beret-vs/32039

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    I see the "nous defions" logo, are you speaking from experience in special forces CQC training? I apologize for doubting you, I think you said before you were in the special forces?

    I did Systema training both knife, hand & gun training with several active and former members of the Spetznaz, including one who was in charge of their training for almost 30 years.

    I was very fortunate to see Mikhail Ryabko give training at a seminar at Quantico a few years ago, in attendance were many members of the US Special Forces. He disarmed SEALs faster than I've ever seen anyone, and he's a "fat" guy who drinks a bear every morning.

    The method in many ways is counter intuitive to American Training, but quite effective.

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Garbage.

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    Pace wrote:
    I see the "nous defions" logo, are you speaking from experience in special forces CQC training? I apologize for doubting you, I think you said before you were in the special forces?

    I did Systema training both knife, hand & gun training with several active and former members of the Spetznaz, including one who was in charge of their training for almost 30 years.

    I was very fortunate to see Mikhail Ryabko give training at a seminar at Quantico a few years ago, in attendance were many members of the US Special Forces. He disarmed SEALs faster than I've ever seen anyone, and he's a "fat" guy who drinks a bear every morning.

    The method in many ways is counter intuitive to American Training, but quite effective.

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Garbage.
    Yes it is quite effective when you don't care about stray bullets hitting a hostage or an innocent bystander. Name me one successful Russian hostage rescue that didn't result in the friendly-fire deaths of at least 20-30 % of the hostages. I bet you can't.

    The Russians don't care where their rounds go or who they hit. Their doctrine is to spray and pray and put as many rounds into the target area and to hell with the hostages. Surgical fire is something very foreign to them. Trust me, if you're ever taken hostage, you DON'T want the Russians to rescue you.

    I'm not familiar with Ryakbo, but I can tell you with a reasonable degree of professional certainty that if it were a real life or death situation, chances are very high that he would end up splayed on the floor.

    Yes, I am a 19 year US Army Special Forces Veteran (B-2-10SFGA) and have taught CQB for over 25 years and have commanded a Russian Airborne platoon in the Baranja when I was with the UN. I am very familiar with their training and capabilities.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    ODA 226 wrote:
    Yes it is quite effective when you don't care about stray bullets hitting a hostage or an innocent bystander. Name me one successful Russian hostage rescue that didn't result in the friendly-fire deaths of at least 20-30 % of the hostages. I bet you can't.

    The Russians don't care where their rounds go or who they hit. Their doctrine is to spray and pray and put as many rounds into the target area and to hell with the hostages. Surgical fire is something very foreign to them. Trust me, if you're ever taken hostage, you DON'T want the Russians to rescue you.

    I'm not familiar with Ryakbo, but I can tell you with a reasonable degree of professional certainty that if it were a real life or death situation, chances are very high that he would end up splayed on the floor.

    Yes, I am a 19 year US Army Special Forces Veteran (B-2-10SFGA) and have taught CQB for over 25 years and have commanded a Russian Airborne platoon in the Baranja when I was with the UN. I am very familiar with their training and capabilities.
    Well I guess I know where the Afghans got their training from then. What did you do prior to selection? Infantry?

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    ABNinfantryman wrote:
    Well I guess I know where the Afghans got their training from then. What did you do prior to selection? Infantry?
    So did the Iraqis...and we all know how crappy they shoot, thank God!

    I was one of the originial "baby" SF in the late 1970's. There was no selection or pre-phase then. You either passed 100% of all SF tasks or you failed. If you failed anything, you were immediately separated from the course and sent to the 82nd Airborne.

    There was no such thing as recycling either. You passed the first time and if you didn't, the course ended for you then and there.

    After six + months of training for us weapons men, you THEN went in front of the selection board and they decided if you were to be given the honor of serving in the regiment.

    It was very different then from what it is today...
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    ODA 226 wrote:
    It was very different then from what it is today.
    I've used the analogy of a filter; then the filter passed only the very finest. Now it's like a muck-pump that will push anything through. I'm speaking of NNP in the early Seventies as 'then'.

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    I'm not going to argue with you, because I know there are different methods of training and philosophy. FSB/Spetznaz training is very, very different than American training and deals with an entire different type of mentality and goal.

    I'd feel stupid doubting what you say, because it seems you probably know a bit more than I do. However, I do know that the Special Forces training used in the late 70s, and 80s had changed significantly -- and that military training is even now changing.

    I do know that even within the US SF community, and you know this to be true, there are totally different opinions about everything. SEALS have different techniques than RANGERS, and different teams have different training depending on where they are deployed. You know the culture in each team often changes and people have debates on what type of type of knife is better.

    Most of my training has switched between defensive tactics for law enforcement and general mass attack scenarios. Just has something to do with the work I've done in the past. If you asked me to rescue a hostage, I'd tell you that I have zero training about that, and I'd probably shoot the hostages first and use them as a shield. *laughing*. However if you asked me what I would do when attacked by 5 people, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with that scenario, because I could tell you where to focus, which target was the weaker target, how to followup your shots incase of return, secondary threats, etc.

    I've also seen Rusisan FSB/Spetznaz train with top SF here and see mental training and techniques that I can't even explain, which is part of the Systema method. I've had Systema people KNOW in practice knife fights that I have a bad right hip, and use that against me.

    Don't forget that 99% of the people here are defending themselves, they aren't rescuing hostages. That being said, your term with the 10 Army Special Forces Group/Airborne, definitely much more of an expert than me. I'd defer to you more than 99% of the time. I have to definately bow to your expertise and service.

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Pace wrote:
    I see the "nous defions" logo, are you speaking from experience in special forces CQC training? I apologize for doubting you, I think you said before you were in the special forces?

    I did Systema training both knife, hand & gun training with several active and former members of the Spetznaz, including one who was in charge of their training for almost 30 years.

    I was very fortunate to see Mikhail Ryabko give training at a seminar at Quantico a few years ago, in attendance were many members of the US Special Forces. He disarmed SEALs faster than I've ever seen anyone, and he's a "fat" guy who drinks a bear every morning.

    The method in many ways is counter intuitive to American Training, but quite effective.

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Garbage.
    Yes it is quite effective when you don't care about stray bullets hitting a hostage or an innocent bystander. Name me one successful Russian hostage rescue that didn't result in the friendly-fire deaths of at least 20-30 % of the hostages. I bet you can't.

    The Russians don't care where their rounds go or who they hit. Their doctrine is to spray and pray and put as many rounds into the target area and to hell with the hostages. Surgical fire is something very foreign to them. Trust me, if you're ever taken hostage, you DON'T want the Russians to rescue you.

    I'm not familiar with Ryakbo, but I can tell you with a reasonable degree of professional certainty that if it were a real life or death situation, chances are very high that he would end up splayed on the floor.

    Yes, I am a 19 year US Army Special Forces Veteran (B-2-10SFGA) and have taught CQB for over 25 years and have commanded a Russian Airborne platoon in the Baranja when I was with the UN. I am very familiar with their training and capabilities.

  10. #10
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    We've all had different experienceswith different levels of intensity, but no matter what our levels of training, experience and expertise are, we can still all learn from each other.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    So, isn't this systema gun handling just another name and perhaps another method of point shooting? I'm asking because I honestly have heard mixed responses on point shooting and who uses it and how.

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    ODA 226, I'm sure I could learn a lot more from you! I'm just good with a knife and a pistol. Never touched a grenade, no idea how to use a sniper rifle... Actually really suck with a sniper rifle, never understood why.

    Systema system is an entire methodology of training.

    I don't know anyone that doesn't say point shooting, or a variant of it isn't the best system. Variants of it, from "reflexive fire" to the AIMED system is the same. My friends in Shin Bet & Mossad have a similar training system, and everyone I know in CIA similar organizations here in the US use a reflective fire based system.



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    ODA 226 wrote:
    It was very different then from what it is today...
    I had a lengthy discussion with some 7th Group guys after we did some transition drills about what they do with their 18X kids who went to selection straight from basic and their other turds. I got the impression there's still an unofficial selection process, if you don't mesh with the guys you'll still be with group, but you'll be put in a non-operating role. It's the nature of the new army, they're slowly realizing that you can't win a COIN fightwith traditional forces, especially when they don't leave the wire and dogood ole fashion patrolling,so they're trying to beef up the ranks of the groups. As you said though, there's a quality control issue now.

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    What do you expect, re: quality control, when we have our forces all over the world? The military is spread too thin, too big. We are in Iraq now acting like police officers and having to try to recruit "anyone" who wants to go there.

    Small, highly trained defense force is what we need.

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    Like I said before, if you're ever taken hostage, you DON'T want the Russians to rescue you!

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd0_1269054034
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    I'm lost on that video. But yeah..

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