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Thread: National Park Carry

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    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    Now that we can carry in National Parks I wonder is there a general prohibition against discharging firearms?

    I assume it's still a major crime to shoot into a tree? What is the penalty for that?

    Also, I have read that the carried gun still has to be unloaded?

    Anyway...we've some progress!


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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    glockfan wrote:
    Also, I have read that the carried gun still has to be unloaded?
    No, you can carry loaded in the same manner (OC or CC) as legal for you anywhere else in VA. You have to observe the no carry signs posted at the entrances to federal buildings (e.g. visitor center).

    Regarding discharge, I will let someone else prvide the applicable rule, but it would still be illegal under the conditions you described (i.e. shooting trees). Personally, I think that stooting trees is a silly thing to do and could potentially be dangerous (if you miss without backstop), even where legal.

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    glockfan wrote:
    Now that we can carry in National Parks I wonder is there a general prohibition against discharging firearms?

    I assume it's still a major crime to shoot into a tree? What is the penalty for that?

    Also, I have read that the carried gun still has to be unloaded?

    Anyway...we've some progress!
    You don't have to carry unloaded, but you should have your brain engaged.

    The law makes it legal to carry for self defense in National Parks.

    It does not make them public ranges, anymore than any other place we carry are.

  4. #4
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    If you annoy the ranger, I suspect he would charge you with vandalism or endangering others.

    I haven't been able to find a law yet that specifically prohibits shooting in the National Park.
    I did find a rule that allows trappers to carry .22 rimfire when trapping certain critters.
    Presumably it was expected that the trapper would shoot the critter caught in the trap.

    Remember too, there are state statutes and county "hunting" ordinances you may violate just by discharging a firearm in certain areas.

    For example:
    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ordinances.pdf

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    You'd get charged with something...and I'd congratulate the Ranger:P

    Those of us with small sawmills, don't like tree shooters.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that the regulations to carry a firearm do not permit the discharging of a firearm. The discharge of a firearm is still illegal in national parks.
    Excerpted from http://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/firearms.htm which seems to be typical of every NPS site I checked.

    The NPS home page does not address this, but rather directs one to the individual parks.

    Note that there are exceptions for hunting where legal.

    It looks like to me that self-defense might only be an affirmative defense. :?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member glockfan's Avatar
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    http://www.nps.gov/shen/naturescience/bear_safety.htm

    "If a bear charges…
    Don’t run! Bears often make bluff charges, sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary, without making contact. Usually if you hold your ground they will back off."


    The important word in that sentence is 'usually.'

    I'm so happy to be able to carry legally!



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    glockfan wrote:
    http://www.nps.gov/shen/naturescience/bear_safety.htm

    "If a bear charges…
    Don’t run! Bears often make bluff charges, sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary, without making contact. Usually if you hold your ground they will back off."


    The important word in that sentence is 'usually.'

    I'm so happy to be able to carry legally!

    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    glockfan wrote:
    http://www.nps.gov/shen/naturescience/bear_safety.htm

    "If a bear charges…
    Don’t run! Bears often make bluff charges, sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary, without making contact. Usually if you hold your ground they will back off."


    The important word in that sentence is 'usually.'

    I'm so happy to be able to carry legally!

    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    I carry a Glock.

    The way some talk about them, all you have to do is pull the pin and anything withing a large radius is doomed.

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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    I carry a Glock.

    The way some talk about them, all you have to do is pull the pin and anything withing a large radius is doomed.
    Ah, the Glock-nade.


    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    ...and a really slow hiking companion!

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    AbNo wrote:
    glockfan wrote:
    http://www.nps.gov/shen/naturescience/bear_safety.htm

    "If a bear charges…
    Don’t run! Bears often make bluff charges, sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary, without making contact. Usually if you hold your ground they will back off."


    The important word in that sentence is 'usually.'

    I'm so happy to be able to carry legally!

    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    I like compact guns. Yesterday I had a Mother Bear and two cubs looking for handouts and was glad I had a small easily carried gun with me.


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    architect wrote:
    AbNo wrote:
    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    ...and a really slow hiking companion!
    I've heard that Glocks ARE fairly good at slowing down hiking companions....
    Nothing really wrong with Glocks. I thought about buying one once. After doing a little shopping I found that Super Soakers were cheaper.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    A glock would likely be no more than an expensive chew toy for some.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    AbNo wrote:
    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    There are documented cases were a Glock 23 (13 rds)and G20 have been used to drop a charging Bear, at least one of those Bears was a Grizzly.

    Never heard of a .45acp stopping a Bear, maybe you 1911 (.45acp) owners could coat your gun in meat sauce and hope the steel frame will break the bears teeth.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    AbNo wrote:
    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    There are documented cases were a Glock 23 (13 rds)and G20 have been used to drop a charging Bear, at least one of those Bears was a Grizzly.

    Never heard of a .45acp stopping a Bear, maybe you 1911 (.45acp) owners could coat your gun in meat sauce and hope the steel frame will break the bears teeth.
    Interesting idea. I have to admit that I am one of those Glock carriers, although I love my 1911s too. I actually thought of buying a Glock 20 for national park carry, but went with a S&W 329PD. Good old .44 magnum beats anything Glock has to offer for serious critters. I wouldn't even consider a 45ACP for this application.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    AbNo wrote:
    Maybe so, but I'd want more than a Glock for a bear.

    Maybe a howitzer and a few football fields.
    There are documented cases were a Glock 23 (13 rds)and G20 have been used to drop a charging Bear, at least one of those Bears was a Grizzly.

    Never heard of a .45acp stopping a Bear, maybe you 1911 (.45acp) owners could coat your gun in meat sauce and hope the steel frame will break the bears teeth.
    Interesting idea. I have to admit that I am one of those Glock carriers, although I love my 1911s too. I actually thought of buying a Glock 20 for national park carry, but went with a S&W 329PD. Good old .44 magnum beats anything Glock has to offer for serious critters. I wouldn't even consider a 45ACP for this application.
    All BFR ribbing aside, although I love both of mine, they are big and not always the easiest thing to carry. Glocks are IMO, town guns and so is my 1911.

    Bears are a consideration but really not much of a threat most of the time. The worst thing I've ever had happen with a bear is getting a camera lens bitten and I think that's because the lens and my Ghille jacked reeked of Vanilla Extract.

    I often carry a reworked Rossi in 44 special. It's very good for people and bears and is small and easy to wear.

    Next most carried gun is my Super Blackhawk in 44 Mag.

    I told Curtis a couple of months ago that the Ruger Redhawk in 45LC with a 4" barrel was the most versatile gun on earth and I stand by that. He bought one and now he doesn't have to think about what his go to gun is.

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    peter nap wrote:

    I told Curtis a couple of months ago that the Ruger Redhawk in 45LC with a 4" barrel was the most versatile gun on earth and I stand by that. He bought one and now he doesn't have to think about what his go to gun is.
    Yes sir, and I love it. No question as to which of mine I'll take roaming and hiking into the woods.

    Still trying to decide if I want to get a holster from New Kent Leather for it or not. I think I probably will eventually. Unfortunately with warmer weather coming I think I might have to carry either my Glock once my Serpa arrives for it. I need the paddle holster so I can have something that I can easy on/easy off for when I take the short walk out to the car. But that's a whole different story. Maybe I'll just carry the Redhawk and cover it with a bag for trips to the car/mail/trash/whatever...

    But if the journey is to the trails and the woods it will definitely be what I take.



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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Curtis wrote:
    peter nap wrote:

    I told Curtis a couple of months ago that the Ruger Redhawk in 45LC with a 4" barrel was the most versatile gun on earth and I stand by that. He bought one and now he doesn't have to think about what his go to gun is.
    Yes sir, and I love it. No question as to which of mine I'll take roaming and hiking into the woods.

    Still trying to decide if I want to get a holster from New Kent Leather for it or not. I think I probably will eventually. Unfortunately with warmer weather coming I think I might have to carry either my Glock once my Serpa arrives for it. I need the paddle holster so I can have something that I can easy on/easy off for when I take the short walk out to the car. But that's a whole different story. Maybe I'll just carry the Redhawk and cover it with a bag for trips to the car/mail/trash/whatever...

    But if the journey is to the trails and the woods it will definitely be what I take.

    That sho 'nuff is a pretty filly, you got there.

    Looks right healthy too.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    If I'm out and about in bear country, and get charged by a bear, I hope I am able to come back here and tell y'all if 45ACP directed into the face/nose/mouth/eyes is a deterrent.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    glockfan wrote:
    http://www.nps.gov/shen/naturescience/bear_safety.htm

    "If a bear charges…
    Don’t run! Bears often make bluff charges, sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary, without making contact. Usually if you hold your ground they will back off."


    If a bear "bluff charges" and stops "sometimes to within 10 feet of their adversary." (that would be you), then God has given you a second chance. A chance to take carful aim and shoot the bear while he is not closing the distance between you and he at an alarming rate. Do not pass up this gift from God.



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    Glock for bear defense, huh? I think I'd want something like a G29 for that application, myself.

    I think I'd be more worried that shooting the bear would just get it even more angry (unless I happened to have a higher-powered rifle along).

    How about carrying a .30-06 for bear defense?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Do not pass up this gift from God.

    Or the chance to obtain an awesome throw rug or ottoman depending on how large/tall.

    Sarcasm
    [line]
    If anyone wants a chance to practice holdingtheir ground against a charging animal I know a few people that will be training large dogs this summer.

    [line]
    As for Gun/caliber choice use whatever gives you comfort.

    [line]
    I am one of those Glock carriers, although I love my 1911s too.
    Before the boat incident I owned more 1911's than any other type/style of firearms, calibers ranging from .380 to .45 Win mag
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    Or the chance to obtain an awesome throw rug or ottoman depending on how large/tall.

    Sarcasm
    [line]
    If anyone wants a chance to practice holdingtheir ground against a charging animal I know a few people that will be training large dogs this summer.

    [line]
    As for Gun/caliber choice use whatever gives you comfort.
    About the time you think you might be good enough and are carrying enough gun, pause and consider this.

    Familiar with the 21 ft rule and the reaction time vs time it takes an active aggressor to reach you?

    Good - now crank up the aggressor's speed to that of a charging bear or dog bent on chewing on your body. Do you now require a 50 ft safety zone?

    You will need to be not only fast and accurate - small kill zone - but lucky too to escape without serious injury.

    Both animals have jaws of steel and a bear can swipe your head almost off.

    I've been told that between the "L" for life and the "Y" for yours, that there is the potential for a lot of "UCK" L..uck...y What he meant was you've got to have it all together to be lucky and not become a mass of uck.

    I've trained with dogs and prefer being in a tower with a long gun thank you.
    I've also seen pictures taken from 8-10' away - ground level, prone, where the dog did not perceive it as a threat - beautiful well conditioned animals.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Agent19 wrote:
    Or the chance to obtain an awesome throw rug or ottoman depending on how large/tall.

    Sarcasm
    [line]
    If anyone wants a chance to practice holdingtheir ground against a charging animal I know a few people that will be training large dogs this summer.

    [line]
    As for Gun/caliber choice use whatever gives you comfort.
    About the time you think you might be good enough and are carrying enough gun, pause and consider this.

    Familiar with the 21 ft rule and the reaction time vs time it takes an active aggressor to reach you?

    Good - now crank up the aggressor's speed to that of a charging bear or dog bent on chewing on your body. Do you now require a 50 ft safety zone?

    You will need to be not only fast and accurate - small kill zone - but lucky too to escape without serious injury.

    Both animals have jaws of steel and a bear can swipe your head almost off.

    I've been told that between the "L" for life and the "Y" for yours, that there is the potential for a lot of "UCK" L..uck...y What he meant was you've got to have it all together to be lucky and not become a mass of uck.

    I've trained with dogs and prefer being in a tower with a long gun thank you.
    I've also seen pictures taken from 8-10' away - ground level, prone, where the dog did not perceive it as a threat - beautiful well conditioned animals.

    Yata hey
    Since the powers haven't deleted this thread yet, I'll throw what little I know about bears in.

    First, the chance of being attacked by one is very remote. They have the best sense of smell I know of and generally hate being around humans.
    Even with cubs, they are pretty skittish.

    I've seen three types of aggression.
    The stomp and scoot. A bear will get disgusted because your interrupting his meal, take one hop at you while snorting or woofing, then scoot off.
    That happens to me fairly often.

    The second is a false charge. They are rare. Black bears aren't like Grizzly's. A black bear doesn't charge often (I've seen two false charges in my life) and when they do charge, they generally mean it.

    Charge. I saw that once and it wasn't charging me. It went after a fellow in a tree stand and damn near got him before he was able to shoot him.

    Stopping a charge requires a brain or spine shot. A heart or lung shot will kill them quickly but not stop them in time.
    In Va woods, the ranges will be short so 21 feet is about right. Hitting brain or spine is almost impossible with something like that running at you.

    The most dangerous bears are ones that are used to people or ones that have been fed.
    The next most dangerous are the males that come courting in the spring. They will kill the cubs and in general have a chip on their shoulder.

    People are more dangerous so I like to have something that is capable of heavy penetration on game but can be used as a defense weapon too. That rules out single shots like contenders.

    This is the last bear picture I took. It was a couple of months ago and gives you an idea just how big they look up close.



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