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Thread: Sidewalks..........

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    For further clarification regarding sidewalks and GFSZs and as a continuation of this... http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/26377-4.html

    thread, here is what I have uncovered......

    The sidewalk is not your private property just as a road is not your private property even if you own the land on both sides of it.. For first amendment rights, a sidewalk is considered property in teh public trust and not private property.





    The term “highway” means “all public ways and thoroughfares and bridges on the same. It includes the entire width between the boundary lines of every way open to the use of the public as a matter of right for the purposes of vehicular travel.” Section 340.01(22), Wis. Stats. Many highways are composed of a paved travel lane in the center, called a “roadway”, with the remaining right-of-way width used as an unpaved shoulder or as an improved sidewalk. Sidewalks adjoining a highway typically lie within the highway right-of-way, which makes them a part of the “highway,” and subject to laws regulating motor vehicle use in the highway. In Interest of E.J.H., 112 Wis. 2d 439, 334 N.W.2d 77 (1983). Therefore, the laws regulating operation of motor vehicles on a “highway” apply on sidewalks as well as on the roadway itself.
    Private Property vs. Public Trust
    There are two types of property ownership recognized by law, jus privatum and jus publicum. Everybody’s familiar with jus privatum, also known as fee simple ownership. It means that you have title to a parcel of property, which confers upon you certain rights with respect to that property. Historically, private property rights have been defined as:

    The right to control the use of your property.
    The right to the benefits that accrue from your property.
    The right to sell or transfer your property.
    The right to exclude others from access to your property.
    On the other hand, few people are familiar with jus publicum, also known as the public trust. Jus publicum ownership is always vested in the state, never in a private party. Unlike jus privatum, jus publicum is not transferrable. [red]Furthermore, in any case where jus publicum can be established, it overrides jus privatum. Therein lies the rub. That enables the state to use jus publicum to abrogate your private property rights, without your consent and without compensation, in any situation where jus publicum can be established[/red]
    [/quote]

    Public Sidewalks
    Sidewalk, streets, and parks are what are known as traditional forums and “have immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public, and time out of mind, have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions.”

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    Hmm... So, why is it my responsibility to shovel the sidewalk? And why am I legally liable when some pedestrian slips and falls on that sidewalk? I don't think it's that cut and dried. Government basically takes control of the use of the property, but takes NONE of the responsibility associated with the property...

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    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    Yes... That's actually a pretty good explanation of how a city sidewalk works

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    Hmm... So, why is it my responsibility to shovel the sidewalk? And why am I legally liable when some pedestrian slips and falls on that sidewalk? I don't think it's that cut and dried. Government basically takes control of the use of the property, but takes NONE of the responsibility associated with the property...
    You are not liable if someone slips and falls on your sidewalk unless it is because of your direct negligence. They would have to file a civil lawsuit. Since you live in a city, you have a responsibilty to the community. You have to pay taxes on your property and you are expected to cut your grass and shovel your sidewalk. If you do not cut your grass I am willing to bet that you could receive a citation. No different forthe sidewalk adjacent to your property. You also have to pay for a curb in there is none and the city decides to put one in. This does not mean the curb is your private property.

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    The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?

    The bottom line is, given eminent domain/condemnation, zoning, codes enforcement, and above all, real estate taxes, the fact is that you don't own anything; you are just a renter who is subject to the rules of the real owner (government).

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    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?

    The bottom line is, given eminent domain/condemnation, zoning, codes enforcement, and above all, real estate taxes, the fact is that you don't own anything; you are just a renter who is subject to the rules of the real owner (government).
    Welcome to the Big City!

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    Can anyone tell me if this applies to an alley? I know the city can pave your alley and bill you for it, so I would assume it is also "public" property.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?
    The city does not "own" the sidewalks or the streets. The city is not "liable" for an auto accident because the city did not plow the streets. The city is not liable for someone falling on the sidewalk. You are not automatically liable if someone falls on your sidewalk. I don't know if anyone has been successful in a suit against a homeowner because they slipped on ice on the sidewalk. Please provide a link to such a successful suit.

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    Okay, then who DOES own the street? (Sometimes, if you live in a private gated community, the homeowners association will actually own the common streets and other property). If it isn't YOU, or your neighbors, then it must be the city/county/state or feds. And the city doesn't get sued for not plowing because of sovereign immunity; they aren't responsible for plowing the street you are driving on at that second, they are responsible for generally plowing streets eventually. It's a lot like the decisions made about the police providing protection; they don't have to protect YOU as an individual, just society at large.

    As far as civil cases, I'll see what I can find...

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    In my case, living in Wisconsin as the benighted_interrupter says he does, I own to the center-line of of the public easement right-of-way. If there was a sidewalk mandated by code then it would also be an easement. My nearest neighbor's driveway exists as an easement on my plat.

    Looking at the thread's OP, by the aforementioned I_K, there is no mention of OC so it's OT from the get-go.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Looking at the thread's OP, by the aforementioned I_K, there is no mention of OC so it's OT from the get-go.
    This is OCDO Kiddo....

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I own to the center-line of of the public easement right-of-way. If there was a sidewalk mandated by code then it would also be an easement.
    Read the OP again Skippy...

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I own to the center-line of of the public easement right-of-way. If there was a sidewalk mandated by code then it would also be an easement.
    Read the OP again Skippy...
    "gun", "firearm", or "carry" does not occur in the thread.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Since you have mentioned either OC, gun, carry, or firearm in at least 2 posts, we are now covered Chief.....

    Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread...





    Once again I will ask you tocease trolling in my thread. When you open your post up with ajuvenile insult, it is evident that you are up to your old games instead ofcontributing to a mature discussion....:?




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    I_K:

    You might find the following case interesting.

    District II Court of Appeals 2008AP2990 Gulbranson v. Sunset family Retaurant



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    Looks like "slip and fall" is a cottage industry in WI.

    http://www.czachor-polack.com/Practi...Injuries.shtml

    Following the links by googling "icy sidewalks + Wisconsin + liability" leads you to bunches of cases and lawyers, some of which contradict each other. But yes, there have been cases wherein suits have been won against homeowners for failing to clear ice/snow from public sidewalks.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    But yes, there have been cases wherein suits have been won against homeowners for failing to clear ice/snow from public sidewalks.
    If someone can win a suit because of spilling hot coffee on their lap, nothing suprises me....

    Since a homeowner is required by city code to remove the snow from the sidewalk adjacent to their property, it is easy to convince a jury of liability. The burden of proof in a civil suit is much lower than for a criminal charge.:?

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Since you have mentioned either OC, gun, carry, or firearm in at least 2 posts, we are now covered Chief.

    Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread.


    Once again I will ask you tocease trolling in my thread. When you open your post up with ajuvenile insult, it is evident that you are up to your old games instead ofcontributing to a mature discussion.
    *****, "my thread" ...

    ******************
    NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!

    11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life. Do not start OFF TOPIC threads or discussions such aspromoting the carry of long guns. Long guns are great! OCDO co-founders John & Mike and most of the folks on this forum own at least one long gun - but due to urban area issues of muzzle control, lack of trigger guard coverage, and the fact that the long gun carry issue distracts from our main mission to promote the open carry of handguns in daily life, we will leave long gun carry activism in the capable hands of the future founders of web sites about long gun carry.

    * His Fathers Only Accidental Discharge! I'll bet he wishes that one's head was pinched.


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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!


    Thank you for posting that reminder to yourself. I know that yourself and others with such a diminished mental capacity have difficulty remembering such simple concepts. Trolling in my thread (regarding GFSZs and sidewalks) fits this, so please GTFO Chief...:?

    Your continued demonstration of juvenile behavior is a shining example of why age alone is not a valid standard for prohibition of things such as alcohol consumption, driving priviledge, firearm ownership and voting... It would not suprise me to find out that the reason yourefuse to come out in public to our Open Carry gatherings is that you have been adjudicated as mentally defective and do not wish to be cited for possessing a firearm.

    Please excuse my statements if they are not sensitive to any underlying medical condition which you may be afflicted with such as Alzheimer's or Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Disease. I would never deliberately pick on the mentally handicapped or otherwise disabled. My reaction to your malicious attacks may be too strong considering your personal circumstances beyond your conscious control.

    That being said, your continued malicious personal attacks should have no place here and you should moderate you own posts before someone comes along and does it for you. If you were to merely stick to debating the subject matter instead of attacking other posters, you would have more credibility. For now your place is as the Master of unproductive diatribe and little more.



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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!


    Thank you for posting that reminder to yourself. I know that yourself and others with such a diminished mental capacity have difficulty remembering such simple concepts. Trolling in my thread (regarding GFSZs and sidewalks) fits this, so please GTFO Chief...:?

    Your continued demonstration of juvenile behavior is a shining example of why age alone is not a valid standard for prohibition of things such as alcohol consumption, driving priviledge, firearm ownership and voting... It would not suprise me to find out that the reason yourefuse to come out in public to our Open Carry gatherings is that you have been adjudicated as mentally defective and do not wish to be cited for possessing a firearm.

    Please excuse my statements if they are not sensitive to any underlying medical condition which you may be afflicted with such as Alzheimer's or Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Disease. I would never deliberately pick on the mentally handicapped or otherwise disabled. My reaction to your malicious attacks may be too strong considering your personal circumstances beyond your conscious control.

    That being said, your continued malicious personal attacks should have no place here and you should moderate you own posts before someone comes along and does it for you. If you were to merely stick to debating the subject matter instead of attacking other posters, you would have more credibility. For now your place is as the Master of unproductive diatribe and little more.

    + 1 , that reminds me, when you watch his video...he seems to be shaking alot, not sure if the tremors are a medical condition or maybe Bombay Sapphire withdrawal , you know Dougy alcohol & guns don't mix. You really need to stop the show & tell , while hitting the sauce in your garage when your buddies are around.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread...
    Not to take Doug's side or anything but I was a little confused when the thread opened up and didn't mention OC. I didn't see where it was tied to a GFSZ thread either. I am new(er) to this forum so maybe I don't know how to read it?

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread...
    Not to take Doug's side or anything but I was a little confused when the thread opened up and didn't mention OC. I didn't see where it was tied to a GFSZ thread either. I am new(er) to this forum so maybe I don't know how to read it?
    Doug was just playing dumb and making jabs. Sidewalks and GFSZs is a point which comes up on somewhat of a regular basis. The discussion is regarding the sidewalks andgrass strip next to the street but bordering your private property and home. The exemption for GFSZ is private property. Until there is case law proclaiming it part of the private property exemption vs part of the public trust I am being conservative and staying off while carrying in a GFSZ

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    Disregard- found the answer I was looking for.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    I contacted 2 attorneys today. The message from both was that neither the sidewalk nor the strip of grass between the sidewalk and street are private property. As such they are not exempt from the Gun Free School Zone Statute.

    A sidewalk is defined asthat portion of a public street right of way that is paved or otherwise surfaced and intended for pedestrian use.

    In other words, the sidewalk in front of your house isa public sidewalk and a public right-of-way not your private property.

    You may not place political signs between the sidewalk and the road or within 1 foot of the sidewalk or 15 feet from the edge of the street if there is no sidewalk.

    Not only are you required by Green Bay City code to remove snow from sidewalks, you are required to remove the snow 4' into the street if there is no sidewalk and it is a common walkway. :?


    City of Green Bay Municipal Code Chapter 9.30,

    SNOW REMOVAL
    (1) SIDEWALKS. The lessee, occupant of first or ground floor, or person having charge of a building, or if there be no lessee, occupant, or person having charge, the owner of each parcel of real estate in the City abutting or bordering upon any street, avenue, highway, or other public place shall remove or cause to be removed all snow and ice from the sidewalk in front of or adjacent to such premises to the full paved width of such sidewalk within 24 hours after such snow or ice has fallen or accumulated thereon; provided where footways or sidewalks have not been paved or duly established, snow and ice shall be removed to a width of not less than 4' from that portion of the street or way which is used in common as a footway.

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