• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Sidewalks..........

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

For further clarification regarding sidewalks and GFSZs and as a continuation of this... http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/26377-4.html

thread, here is what I have uncovered......

The sidewalk is not your private property just as a road is not your private property even if you own the land on both sides of it.. For first amendment rights, a sidewalk is considered property in teh public trust and not private property.





The term “highway” means “all public ways and thoroughfares and bridges on the same. It includes the entire width between the boundary lines of every way open to the use of the public as a matter of right for the purposes of vehicular travel.” Section 340.01(22), Wis. Stats. Many highways are composed of a paved travel lane in the center, called a “roadway”, with the remaining right-of-way width used as an unpaved shoulder or as an improved sidewalk. Sidewalks adjoining a highway typically lie within the highway right-of-way, which makes them a part of the “highway,” and subject to laws regulating motor vehicle use in the highway. In Interest of E.J.H., 112 Wis. 2d 439, 334 N.W.2d 77 (1983). Therefore, the laws regulating operation of motor vehicles on a “highway” apply on sidewalks as well as on the roadway itself.
Private Property vs. Public Trust
There are two types of property ownership recognized by law, jus privatum and jus publicum. Everybody’s familiar with jus privatum, also known as fee simple ownership. It means that you have title to a parcel of property, which confers upon you certain rights with respect to that property. Historically, private property rights have been defined as:

The right to control the use of your property.
The right to the benefits that accrue from your property.
The right to sell or transfer your property.
The right to exclude others from access to your property.
On the other hand, few people are familiar with jus publicum, also known as the public trust. Jus publicum ownership is always vested in the state, never in a private party. Unlike jus privatum, jus publicum is not transferrable. [red]Furthermore, in any case where jus publicum can be established, it overrides jus privatum. Therein lies the rub. That enables the state to use jus publicum to abrogate your private property rights, without your consent and without compensation, in any situation where jus publicum can be established[/red]
[/quote]

Public Sidewalks
Sidewalk, streets, and parks are what are known as traditional forums and “have immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public, and time out of mind, have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions.”
 

johnfenter

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
209
Location
, ,
imported post

Hmm... So, why is it my responsibility to shovel the sidewalk? And why am I legally liable when some pedestrian slips and falls on that sidewalk? I don't think it's that cut and dried. Government basically takes control of the use of the property, but takes NONE of the responsibility associated with the property...
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

johnfenter wrote:
Hmm... So, why is it my responsibility to shovel the sidewalk? And why am I legally liable when some pedestrian slips and falls on that sidewalk? I don't think it's that cut and dried. Government basically takes control of the use of the property, but takes NONE of the responsibility associated with the property...

You are not liable if someone slips and falls on your sidewalk unless it is because of your direct negligence. They would have to file a civil lawsuit. Since you live in a city, you have a responsibilty to the community. You have to pay taxes on your property and you are expected to cut your grass and shovel your sidewalk. If you do not cut your grass I am willing to bet that you could receive a citation. No different forthe sidewalk adjacent to your property. You also have to pay for a curb in there is none and the city decides to put one in. This does not mean the curb is your private property.
 

johnfenter

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
209
Location
, ,
imported post

The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?

The bottom line is, given eminent domain/condemnation, zoning, codes enforcement, and above all, real estate taxes, the fact is that you don't own anything; you are just a renter who is subject to the rules of the real owner (government).
 

hunter9mm

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
255
Location
Greenfield, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

johnfenter wrote:
The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?

The bottom line is, given eminent domain/condemnation, zoning, codes enforcement, and above all, real estate taxes, the fact is that you don't own anything; you are just a renter who is subject to the rules of the real owner (government).
Welcome to the Big City!
 

CUOfficer

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
197
Location
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Can anyone tell me if this applies to an alley? I know the city can pave your alley and bill you for it, so I would assume it is also "public" property.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

johnfenter wrote:
The difference is, I get to decide who walks on my grass. If the city is assuming ownership of the sidewalk as a right of way for pedestrians, why aren't they also assuming the liability of being negligent in maintaining it in a safe condition?
The city does not "own" the sidewalks or the streets. The city is not "liable" for an auto accident because the city did not plow the streets. The city is not liable for someone falling on the sidewalk. You are not automatically liable if someone falls on your sidewalk. I don't know if anyone has been successful in a suit against a homeowner because they slipped on ice on the sidewalk. Please provide a link to such a successful suit.
 

johnfenter

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
209
Location
, ,
imported post

Okay, then who DOES own the street? (Sometimes, if you live in a private gated community, the homeowners association will actually own the common streets and other property). If it isn't YOU, or your neighbors, then it must be the city/county/state or feds. And the city doesn't get sued for not plowing because of sovereign immunity; they aren't responsible for plowing the street you are driving on at that second, they are responsible for generally plowing streets eventually. It's a lot like the decisions made about the police providing protection; they don't have to protect YOU as an individual, just society at large.

As far as civil cases, I'll see what I can find...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,381
Location
across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
imported post

In my case, living in Wisconsin as the benighted_interrupter says he does, I own to the center-line of of the public easement right-of-way. If there was a sidewalk mandated by code then it would also be an easement. My nearest neighbor's driveway exists as an easement on my plat.

Looking at the thread's OP, by the aforementioned I_K, there is no mention of OC so it's OT from the get-go.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Since you have mentioned either OC, gun, carry, or firearm in at least 2 posts, we are now covered Chief.....;)

Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread...





Once again I will ask you tocease trolling in my thread. When you open your post up with ajuvenile insult, it is evident that you are up to your old games instead ofcontributing to a mature discussion....:?
 

Lammie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
907
Location
, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

I_K:

You might find the following case interesting.

District II Court of Appeals 2008AP2990 Gulbranson v. Sunset family Retaurant
 

johnfenter

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
209
Location
, ,
imported post

Looks like "slip and fall" is a cottage industry in WI.

http://www.czachor-polack.com/Practice-Areas/Slip-Fall-Accidents-Dog-Bite-Injuries.shtml

Following the links by googling "icy sidewalks + Wisconsin + liability" leads you to bunches of cases and lawyers, some of which contradict each other. But yes, there have been cases wherein suits have been won against homeowners for failing to clear ice/snow from public sidewalks.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

johnfenter wrote:
But yes, there have been cases wherein suits have been won against homeowners for failing to clear ice/snow from public sidewalks.

If someone can win a suit because of spilling hot coffee on their lap, nothing suprises me....

Since a homeowner is required by city code to remove the snow from the sidewalk adjacent to their property, it is easy to convince a jury of liability. The burden of proof in a civil suit is much lower than for a criminal charge.:?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,381
Location
across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
imported post

Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Since you have mentioned either OC, gun, carry, or firearm in at least 2 posts, we are now covered Chief.

Just to put your little mind at ease, I will edit the OP to reference the Milwaukee School Zone thread which linked to this thread.


Once again I will ask you tocease trolling in my thread. When you open your post up with ajuvenile insult, it is evident that you are up to your old games instead ofcontributing to a mature discussion.
FOAD*, "my thread" ...

[align=center][font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]******************[/font][/align] [font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!

[/font]11) This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life. Do not start OFF TOPIC threads or discussions such aspromoting the carry of long guns. Long guns are great! OCDO co-founders John & Mike and most of the folks on this forum own at least one long gun - but due to urban area issues of muzzle control, lack of trigger guard coverage, and the fact that the long gun carry issue distracts from our main mission to promote the open carry of handguns in daily life, we will leave long gun carry activism in the capable hands of the future founders of web sites about long gun carry.

* His Fathers Only Accidental Discharge! I'll bet he wishes that one's head was pinched.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Master Doug Huffman wrote:
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!
[/font]



Thank you for posting that reminder to yourself. I know that yourself and others with such a diminished mental capacity have difficulty remembering such simple concepts. Trolling in my thread (regarding GFSZs and sidewalks) fits this, so please GTFO Chief...:?

Your continued demonstration of juvenile behavior is a shining example of why age alone is not a valid standard for prohibition of things such as alcohol consumption, driving priviledge, firearm ownership and voting... It would not suprise me to find out that the reason yourefuse to come out in public to our Open Carry gatherings is that you have been adjudicated as mentally defective and do not wish to be cited for possessing a firearm.

Please excuse my statements if they are not sensitive to any underlying medical condition which you may be afflicted with such as Alzheimer's or Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Disease. I would never deliberately pick on the mentally handicapped or otherwise disabled. My reaction to your malicious attacks may be too strong considering your personal circumstances beyond your conscious control.

That being said, your continued malicious personal attacks should have no place here and you should moderate you own posts before someone comes along and does it for you. If you were to merely stick to debating the subject matter instead of attacking other posters, you would have more credibility. For now your place is as the Master of unproductive diatribe and little more.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!
[/font]



Thank you for posting that reminder to yourself. I know that yourself and others with such a diminished mental capacity have difficulty remembering such simple concepts. Trolling in my thread (regarding GFSZs and sidewalks) fits this, so please GTFO Chief...:?

Your continued demonstration of juvenile behavior is a shining example of why age alone is not a valid standard for prohibition of things such as alcohol consumption, driving priviledge, firearm ownership and voting... It would not suprise me to find out that the reason yourefuse to come out in public to our Open Carry gatherings is that you have been adjudicated as mentally defective and do not wish to be cited for possessing a firearm.

Please excuse my statements if they are not sensitive to any underlying medical condition which you may be afflicted with such as Alzheimer's or Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Disease. I would never deliberately pick on the mentally handicapped or otherwise disabled. My reaction to your malicious attacks may be too strong considering your personal circumstances beyond your conscious control.

That being said, your continued malicious personal attacks should have no place here and you should moderate you own posts before someone comes along and does it for you. If you were to merely stick to debating the subject matter instead of attacking other posters, you would have more credibility. For now your place is as the Master of unproductive diatribe and little more.
+ 1 :) , that reminds me, when you watch his video...he seems to be shaking alot, not sure if the tremors are a medical condition or maybe Bombay Sapphire withdrawal , you know Dougy alcohol & guns don't mix. You really need to stop the show & tell , while hitting the sauce in your garage when your buddies are around.
 
Top