Obamacare passed...2

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eye95 wrote:

We ign'nant masses is glad we has the govmint and democrats to takes care o' us, cuz we is to dumm to takes care o' usselves.

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Reading stuff like this reminds me of when I walked out of the movie theatre after seeing Dogma. All over the place were Christians with their banners protesting the movie because they don't like people poking fun at their god. Yet what they failed to recognize was that they were protesting the very law, and system, that protects their freedoms to worship the way they do.

Here we have 2A advocates who claim to love the constitution and want their rights, yet don't bother to understand why it is our country not operate on what the majority of people want? You DO NOT WANT the elected officials voting based on what "MOST" Americans do or do not want, because if that were the case you eventually would lose your right to own a gun.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

OCforAll wrote:

Alexcabbie wrote:

Nobody but a socialist uses a word like "masses" to describe the voters.  Folks, here is another Ubamanista troll who joined last week, with no location given..  And from the tone and the "Styles", guess who I think it is?

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Well, I guess I could follow up by calling you ignorant, but I since I don't know you I'll just say that your statement is ignorant. Because it is.

In case you don't know how to find a dictionary:

mass -noun :the masses, the ordinary or common people as a whole

I believe my use of the phrase "the masses" was apt, if you disagree then perhaps you could articulate your view in a way other than that of a buffoon.

And in case you missed class that day, Socialism relates to workers and production, not medicine. You may want to research what you say before you speak. You may also want to educate yourself on just what a Constitutional Republic is, and how it differs from a true democracy.

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Thank you for confirming my suspicions,   although reading your previous postings already did that.  Ronald Reagan, by the way, viewed that particular definition of the phrase "the masses" in the same way I do.   

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The only suspicion I've confirmed for you is that you are ignorant to the subject. I'm new to the board and my IP address will confirm that.

Ronald Reagan also knew about arms being sold to Iran, a country which not even 10-years prior took and held Americans hostage. And he lied about it. He also cheated on his first wife, and did a number of other things that make him just as much a fallible human being as the rest of us. Your point?

Again, if you disagree with my opinion then articulate an intelligent response.

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OCforAll wrote:

eye95 wrote:

We ign'nant masses is glad we has the govmint and democrats to takes care o' us, cuz we is to dumm to takes care o' usselves.

Click to expand...

Reading stuff like this reminds me of when I walked out of the movie theatre after seeing Dogma. All over the place were Christians with their banners protesting the movie because they don't like people poking fun at their god. Yet what they failed to recognize was that they were protesting the very law, and system, that protects their freedoms to worship the way they do.

Here we have 2A advocates who claim to love the constitution and want their rights, yet don't bother to understand why it is our country not operate on what the majority of people want? You DO NOT WANT the elected officials voting based on what "MOST" Americans do or do not want, because if that were the case you eventually would lose your right to own a gun.

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Maybe. But what the overwhelming majority DO want, and moreover what is REQUIRED, is that the government follow the Constitution and the law. The "individul mandate" to buy insurance (or else) is "justified" by a "finding" that insurance is "interstate commerce" and that by lief of their authority to "regulate commerce" they are thereby authorized to force you to purchase a thing. Doug has given a link to the bill, wherein this ludicrous reasoning is clearly outlined.

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You are new to Ohio, Styles. Miss Connecticut, much?

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jgregel wrote:

snip

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Let me ask you one important question. What other parts of the USA have you worked in aside from the mid west? Military experience, vacations, and perhaps short business trips don't count.

Particularly, have you ever worked any where near the southern border?

Are you completely and utterly certain that aside from a few idiots, and a few extremely unlucky people, that it's pure stupidity and laziness that cause a lack of health care?

I personally think the bulk of the problem is the fact that people in the US are too stupid and short sighted to be tighter at the borders both with immigrants and foreign products. This is the idiocy that can be blamed for the wage crisis, which can also be blamed for the fact that health care is unobtainable for so many people.

You mentioned that you did welding, which is an interesting topic. A couple fairly good welders I know are making 12 bucks an hour these days, when they have work. Blue collar wages aren't what they used to be. :uhoh:

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Alexcabbie wrote:

OCforAll wrote:

eye95 wrote:

We ign'nant masses is glad we has the govmint and democrats to takes care o' us, cuz we is to dumm to takes care o' usselves.

Click to expand...

Reading stuff like this reminds me of when I walked out of the movie theatre after seeing Dogma. All over the place were Christians with their banners protesting the movie because they don't like people poking fun at their god. Yet what they failed to recognize was that they were protesting the very law, and system, that protects their freedoms to worship the way they do.

Here we have 2A advocates who claim to love the constitution and want their rights, yet don't bother to understand why it is our country not operate on what the majority of people want? You DO NOT WANT the elected officials voting based on what "MOST" Americans do or do not want, because if that were the case you eventually would lose your right to own a gun.

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Maybe.  But what the overwhelming majority DO want, and moreover what is REQUIRED,  is that the government follow the Constitution and the law.  The "individul mandate" to buy insurance (or else) is "justified" by a "finding" that insurance is "interstate commerce" and that by lief of their authority to "regulate commerce" they are thereby authorized to force you to purchase a thing.  Doug has given a link to the bill, wherein this ludicrous reasoning is clearly outlined.

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ugh.... I clearly prefaced my statement by saying I haven't read one single word of the bill. I am ignorant on the subject, hence my lack of opinion. What I said was that you don't want officals voting based on what most people do or do not think, because most people are also ignorant on the subject. That was my point. It's inline with the reason we don't go by the popular vote in the presidential election. I didn't say I'm for or against the health care bill, but I am against uneducated and misinformed people making decisions; or even worse, making other people believe their nonsense. It helps none of us.

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Michigander wrote:

I personally think the bulk of the problem is the fact that people in the US are too stupid and short sighted to be tighter at the borders both with immigrants and foreign products. This is the idiocy that can be blamed for the wage crisis, which can also be blamed for the fact that health care is unobtainable for so many people.

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Way to blow your credibility with fantasy.

Then again, I'm sure most people on this forum agree with your absurd explanation.

Then yet again, most people neither understand nor truly desire liberty.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

OCforAll wrote:

eye95 wrote:

We ign'nant masses is glad we has the govmint and democrats to takes care o' us, cuz we is to dumm to takes care o' usselves.

Click to expand...

Reading stuff like this reminds me of when I walked out of the movie theatre after seeing Dogma. All over the place were Christians with their banners protesting the movie because they don't like people poking fun at their god. Yet what they failed to recognize was that they were protesting the very law, and system, that protects their freedoms to worship the way they do.

Here we have 2A advocates who claim to love the constitution and want their rights, yet don't bother to understand why it is our country not operate on what the majority of people want? You DO NOT WANT the elected officials voting based on what "MOST" Americans do or do not want, because if that were the case you eventually would lose your right to own a gun.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But what the overwhelming majority DO want, and moreover what is REQUIRED, is that the government follow the Constitution and the law. The "individul mandate" to buy insurance (or else) is "justified" by a "finding" that insurance is "interstate commerce" and that by lief of their authority to "regulate commerce" they are thereby authorized to force you to purchase a thing. Doug has given a link to the bill, wherein this ludicrous reasoning is clearly outlined.

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The Commerce Clause is pretty expansive:and the business of health careand insurance pretty clearly has a substantial impact on interstate commerce. I wouldn't hold my breath betting on the Supremes to overturn the health careon the basis thatCongress lacks the power to mandate that people buy insurance.

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The Donkey wrote:

Alexcabbie wrote:

OCforAll wrote:

eye95 wrote:

We ign'nant masses is glad we has the govmint and democrats to takes care o' us, cuz we is to dumm to takes care o' usselves.

Click to expand...

Reading stuff like this reminds me of when I walked out of the movie theatre after seeing Dogma. All over the place were Christians with their banners protesting the movie because they don't like people poking fun at their god. Yet what they failed to recognize was that they were protesting the very law, and system, that protects their freedoms to worship the way they do.

Here we have 2A advocates who claim to love the constitution and want their rights, yet don't bother to understand why it is our country not operate on what the majority of people want? You DO NOT WANT the elected officials voting based on what "MOST" Americans do or do not want, because if that were the case you eventually would lose your right to own a gun.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But what the overwhelming majority DO want, and moreover what is REQUIRED, is that the government follow the Constitution and the law. The "individul mandate" to buy insurance (or else) is "justified" by a "finding" that insurance is "interstate commerce" and that by lief of their authority to "regulate commerce" they are thereby authorized to force you to purchase a thing. Doug has given a link to the bill, wherein this ludicrous reasoning is clearly outlined.

Click to expand...

The Commerce Clause is pretty expansive:and the business of health careand insurance pretty clearly has a substantial impact on interstate commerce. I wouldn't hold my breath betting on the Supremes to overturn the health careon the basis thatCongress lacks the power to mandate that people buy insurance.

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By those lights, bananas are "Interstate Commerce"; and the banana industry would benefit if everyone bought bananas; so Congress could constitutionally require every American to buy a bunch of bananas every day, and have the IRS make sure they do?? I don't think so. And I do not think the Founders envisioned the Commerce Clause as a loophole, let alone something to be used to negate the rest of the Constitution so long as these statist morons can tie what they want to dictate about to "interstate commerce". Wickard v.Filbrun should be overturned.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

By those lights, bananas are "Interstate Commerce"; and the banana industry would benefit if everyone bought bananas;  so Congress could constitutionally require every American to buy a bunch of bananas every day, and have the IRS make sure they do??     I don't think so.  And I do not think the Founders envisioned the Commerce Clause as a loophole, let alone something to be used to negate the rest of the Constitution so long as these statist morons can tie what they want to dictate about to "interstate commerce".  Wickard v.Filbrun should be overturned.

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Again, I haven't read the bill and have no opinion on it either way, but I don't see how the banana scenario is analogous to health care. 99.999% of people will seek out health care. Not most, but a lot of those people will use up more costs than they pay in, hence the business model applied to health insurance. Irrespective of the reason(s) why, if you don't have health insurance and you don't pay into the pool which lowers the overall costs for all, and the government can't refuse you medical emergency service, then the question becomes why don't they have the right to mandate it? They have the right to tax us and spend our money on things we may never need or use, how is this different? I'm not arguing for or against, just asking how it's different than anything else the government uses my tax money for.

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good freaking grief. Unwatch topic.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

good freaking grief.  Unwatch topic.

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So if it's not part of your dogma then just ignore debate? Awesome!

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To save a bit of time, I am linking a good debate between two constitutional scholars on this issue:

http://www.fed-soc.org/debates/dbtid.35/default.asp

I agreewith Chemerinsky on this: but then again, I am not sure the Supreme Court would agree with me and what I think is their precedent.

One thing for sure: its out of our hands now.

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OCforAll wrote:

Alexcabbie wrote:

good freaking grief. Unwatch topic.

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So if it's not part of your dogma then just ignore debate? Awesome!

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Naww he quit talking to you because because you do not or will not understand what "unconstitutional" means. Willful ignorance at it's worst. Good luck with that.

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Professor Rivkins assessment certainly seems to be correct, in my humble opinion.

Nowhere is he arguing the capability of the Federal Government to regulate large insurance companies via interstate commerce, as stipulated in the Constitution. He is merely pointing out that all matters of Constitutional degree where Interstate Commerce is concerned, is only regulated at the business or organizational level, and such laws do not force at any time, the compulsory participation of the American people.

There are absolutely numerous examples of this, and I struggle to find a single instance of Interstate Commerce that forces individuals to participate in a compulsory fashion.

I am not a Constitutional Law professor, but I see a gaping hole in the other professors argument, that since the Federal Government is given authority in matters of interstate commerce, it can punish those who do not wish to participate, at the individual level.

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Odd how Saul Alinsky keeps showing up under various newbie names on this forum lately.

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KansasMustang wrote:

I don't know. All my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in the pond on my "back forty"

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I had to learn the hard way as well. It seems that taking all of one's guns on a boat that the same time, is a bad idea. I still can't figure how all mine ended up overboard all at once???

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Michigander wrote:

jgregel wrote:

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Let me ask you one important question. What other parts of the USA have you worked in aside from the mid west? Military experience, vacations, and perhaps short business trips don't count.

Lived and worked here my whole life.

Particularly, have you ever worked any where near the southern border?

Don't like the southern border. Too hot and to many illegal Mexicans.

Are you completely and utterly certain that aside from a few idiots, and a few extremely unlucky people, that it's pure stupidity and laziness that cause a lack of health care?

Plenty of reasons for people not having health care. My point is, if you can't make money in this country, you're not trying hard enough.

I personally think the bulk of the problem is the fact that people in the US are too stupid and short sighted to be tighter at the borders both with immigrants and foreign products. This is the idiocy that can be blamed for the wage crisis, which can also be blamed for the fact that health care is unobtainable for so many people.

Big corporations are evil. I worked for one after I got done with college. One of my jobs was to redo part drawings and write new specifications for materials and manufacturing so they could send them overseas. I hated it because we mostly got inferior products back. I have since started my own business and have been steadily building it for the last 5 years.

I think that if people want to come live in this country they should use the front door. But instead we have 11million undocumented democrats that slipped across the border and are now being given jobs illegally buy companies because they, for the most part, work hard and don't require retirements or health care. Shipping all the work overseas didn't help us any.

You mentioned that you did welding, which is an interesting topic. A couple fairly good welders I know are making 12 bucks an hour these days, when they have work. Blue collar wages aren't what they used to be. :uhoh:

I worked for 15 years as a welder. I also have 10 years industrial electrical experience because in my spare time I had two jobs. When I left the fabricating shop in 1997 I was making $20/ hour in a small (4 full time guys) non union shop. I have 10 years experience now as a Mechanical Engineer. I love engineering but miss the shop days.

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buster81 wrote:

KansasMustang wrote:

I don't know. All my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in the pond on my "back forty"

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I had to learn the hard way as well. It seems that taking all of one's guns on a boat that the same time, is a bad idea. I still can't figure how all mine ended up overboard all at once???

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At leat you managed to right and bail the boat, correct? The boat that later burned in the field...?:lol:

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marshaul wrote:

Way to blow your credibility with fantasy.

Then again, I'm sure most people on this forum agree with your absurd explanation.

Then yet again, most people neither understand nor truly desire liberty.

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This is a classic anti gunner type argument. At least from what you've said here, totally emotion based with no hard facts to back it.

Strange. Normally, I’d give you a lot of credibility. You usually understand what you are saying, and make plenty of sense. Here however, you have lost me.

Cheap foreign crap made by cheap foreign labor is a detriment to wages in the US, as are skilled illegal immigrants who will work very cheaply, live like dogs in the US, and take their money back to Mexico to live in nice big houses. As jgregel will tell you, it impacts mid western workers less, but it is still a serious problem, which little by little continues to erode our entire countries economy. And again, the health care crisis is realistically only a symptom of the wage problem, which is brought on by these other factors.

I don’t think that anyone of any actual credibility and reputation can dispute that the US has done everything it can to throw away its industrial might. If you are trying to say that finding this disgusting, disturbing and wrong contradicts liberty, then you have really, truly gone beyond the realm of making sense, at least as far as I can see.

But I am a person who strives to have an open mind, and I'd love to see you prove me wrong.