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With health care out of the way, time to define 'reasonable gun control' looms

GLOCK21GB

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JamesIan wrote:
Glock34 wrote:
A_Berkowitz wrote:
I think that reasonable gun control would be a good thing. Too many people are getting killed by guns because of the relaxed gun laws in our country. I'm from New York City, and around here the only people that have guns are the police
If Your for Gun Control , then why are you on this board ? There is no such thing as REASONABLE gun control, Moron.
Someone is missing the irony.
no I got it --> Cops being the only ones with guns, the poster was being sarcastic, Yeah...I got it... Regardless, any talk about gun control is a swear word around here.
 

Interceptor_Knight

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A_Berkowitz wrote:
I think that reasonable gun control would be a good thing. Too many people are getting killed by guns because of the relaxed gun laws in our country. I'm from New York City, and around here the only people that have guns are the police.
The police are not for your personal protection. That is your responsibility. The police are there to keep general order. They carry firearms to protect themselves from violent criminals and not to protect you.
 

ABNinfantryman

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A_Berkowitz wrote:
Again with the insults ... "troll"?! I am a liberal and I am proud, regardless of your insults! I think that Obama will not only get us out of debt, but he will also enact logical gun control laws like waiting periods, in-depth background checks, and possibly lie-detector tests.
Waiting periods? There already are waiting periods. In-depth background checks? Yup got those too. Lie detector tests? What good are those when they're not submissable in court and they can be beaten relatively easily.
 

marshaul

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A_Berkowitz wrote:
...logical gun control laws like waiting periods, in-depth background checks, and possibly lie-detector tests.
What's logical about any of these things?

Being proud isn't the same thing as being right.
 

eye95

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Lie detector tests??? This guy wouldn't know a right if it slapped him upside the head. I have taken one such test (as a requirement of employment). I am living proof that they are unreliable.

They measure changes in stress. The assumption is that these changes are the result of deception--which is a faulty assumption. Lies do cause increases in stress most of the time, however not all of the time. Worse, other things cause increases in stress.

There is a reason that the law protects our rights by not allowing lie detector tests in courts.
 
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eye95 wrote:
There is a reason that the law protects our rights by not allowing lie detector tests in courts.
Bullsnit. Please make a proper citation. Here, this may help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#United_States
United States In 2007[update], polygraph testimony was admitted by stipulation in 19 states, and was subject to the discretion of the trial judge in federal court. The use of polygraph in court testimony remains controversial, although it is used extensively in post-conviction supervision, particularly of sex offenders. In Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals (1993),[43] the old Frye standard was lifted and all forensic evidence, including polygraph, had to meet the new Daubert standard in which "underlying reasoning or methodology is scientifically valid and properly can be applied to the facts at issue." While polygraph tests are commonly used in police investigations in the US, no defendant or witness can be forced to undergo the test. In United States v. Scheffer (1998),[44] the U.S. Supreme Court left it up to individual jurisdictions whether polygraph results could be admitted as evidence in court cases. Nevertheless, it is used extensively by prosecutors, defense attorneys, and law enforcement agencies. In the States of Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, Delaware and Iowa it is illegal for any employer to order a polygraph either as conditions to gain employment, or if an employee has been suspected of wrongdoing. The Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988 (EPPA) generally prevents employers from using lie detector tests, either for pre-employment screening or during the course of employment, with certain exemptions.[45] In the United States, the State of New Mexico admits polygraph testing in front of juries under certain circumstances. In many other states, polygraph examiners are permitted to testify in front of judges in various types of hearings (Motion to Revoke Probation, Motion to Adjudicate Guilt). In 2007, in Ohio v. Sharma, an Ohio trial court overruled the objections of a prosecutor and allowed a polygraph examiner to testify regarding a specific issue criminal examination. The court took the position that the prosecutors regularly used a polygraph examiner to conduct criminal tests against defendants, but only objected to the examiner's testimony when the results contradicted what they hoped to achieve.[46] Dr. Louis Rovner[8], a polygraph expert from California, tested the defendant and testified as an expert witness both at a pretrial admissibility hearing and at trial. The defendant, who had been charged with sexual battery, was acquitted.
 

eye95

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Wikipedia: The last refuge of a scoundrel.

Folks, don't use Wikipedia for anything controversial. There is a reason that most schools will not allow it as a source.

Virtually anything can be admitted by stipulation. Stipulation means that both parties accept the truth of something and don't want to spend time going back and forth on it. Try to admit a lie-detector test result in a court of law to prove a defendant committed a crime, over the objection of the defense, and see how far you get.

Once again, Mister Huffman is being an antagonist for the sake of being antagonistic.

Moving on.
 

rpyne

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eye95 wrote:
Folks, don't use Wikipedia for anything controversial. There is a reason that most schools will not allow it as a source.
Yes, they won't allow it because it hasn't been filtered through the NEA's progressive political correctness machine.
 

eye95

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rpyne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
Folks, don't use Wikipedia for anything controversial. There is a reason that most schools will not allow it as a source.
Yes, they won't allow it because it hasn't been filtered through the NEA's progressive political correctness machine.
Actually, there is constantly changing bias and inaccuracies from all POVs. The problem is that, for most articles, anyone can sign up and modify articles. There is no scholarly review system.

Folks who fancy themselves to be scholars then misuse what information is there.
 

marshaul

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They reason they don't allow wikipedia in schools is because they apparently no longer teach the process of synthesis.

If you haven't learned it, that advice is good.

For the rest of us, wikipedia is by default no more nor less useful as a source than anywhere else. For, every source must be considered in context and for bias.

The rejection of wikipedia as useful is the mark of those who apply undue credence by default to works of "scholarly" nature, without first applying the requisite analysis due any work, and which analysis may prove the unscholarly source to be superior to the scholarly one.

All sources are equally useful. It is up to the reader to synthesize an accurate conclusion from an inaccurate source. However, it remains equally up to the reader to synthesize an accurate conclusion from an accurate source.

Education is power.
 

eye95

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I can tell you why I, as a teacher, and my immediate collegues would never accept Wikipedia as a source: Articles could say one thing one day and something else the next. They would be full of opinion and "facts" that could not be verified.

It simply is a no more credible source than the posts on this forum.

What I recommended my students do is use Wikipedia as a metareference. I advised them to read the articles, check the "facts" with the sources referenced at the end of the articles, and use those references to support their work--as long as those sources were respectable.

As a teacher, I can assure you that bad sources will result in bad synthesis. Good sources will result in good synthesis. Wikipedia can be a bad source or a good source. You never know. So any scholar wouldn't use it as a reliable source.
 

ABNinfantryman

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:
eye95 wrote:
There is a reason that the law protects our rights by not allowing lie detector tests in courts.
Bullsnit. Please make a proper citation. Here, this may help
I'm going off what my defense attorney told me when I took one to clear my name of a smuggling charge. Stupid POG CID agents! :cuss:
 

Old Grump

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[size=[quote]If Democrats retain control of Congress, expect the next “big item” on the political agenda next year to be an attempt to renew the ban on so-called “assault weapons,” which are far better defined as Modern Sporting Rifles (MSR). They are, after all, widely known as "the party of gun control." If the Congress can get away with such a ban, then even if the Supreme Court rules favorably as anticipated that the Second Amendment is incorporated to the states, Legislatures across the landscape will start considering seriously ratcheting down on gun rights.[/quote]

Gun Control

That term has always bothered me. Like anybody using the term Democracy to describe our form of government. It's about people control, in particular independent people who don't take kindly to being defenseless in face of an armed criminal element on the street or forced to suffer the indignities of a being a victim at home while waiting for your 911 call to be answered.

Every law that is passed is another freedom lost.
][/size]
 

XD-GEM

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I think that the gun ban folks in the current Administration will not even attempt to come up with "reasonable" restrictions. They will simply seek to have the UN Small Arms Treaty ban individual ownership of firearms, then ratify the treaty in the US Senate, then point to the Constitution's saying that treaties are the highest law of the land, then shrug their collectivist shoulders and say, "Well, nothing we can do. Sorry, turn them all in."
 

GLOCK21GB

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XD-GEM wrote:
I think that the gun ban folks in the current Administration will not even attempt to come up with "reasonable" restrictions. They will simply seek to have the UN Small Arms Treaty ban individual ownership of firearms, then ratify the treaty in the US Senate, then point to the Constitution's saying that treaties are the highest law of the land, then shrug their collectivist shoulders and say, "Well, nothing we can do. Sorry, turn them all in."
I wanna see the blue helmet wearing UN boys collect 300 million weapons from 100 million American households. ( numbers might not be correct ) only a few Americans would actually turn them in voluntarily & the cops don't have the nads to confiscate them or enough cops to replace the veteran officers that got shot attempting to confiscate.

Things would get really Ugly here in the USA if that was ever tried.
 

Pace

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This is the same crazy talk that people have been saying for years. The UN is not coming into this country, partially because most of the UN is made up of US Soldiers :) The other reason being is that the US has a permanent seat and can override anything. Secondly, people have been makign this UN arguement for 40 years... it's insane.

The UN can't even do anything in countries like Serbia, Croatia...etc.. they are useless. Give me a break

Glock34 wrote:
XD-GEM wrote:
I think that the gun ban folks in the current Administration will not even attempt to come up with "reasonable" restrictions.  They will simply seek to have the UN Small Arms Treaty ban individual ownership of firearms, then ratify the treaty in the US Senate, then point to the Constitution's saying that treaties are the highest law of the land, then shrug their collectivist shoulders and say, "Well, nothing we can do.  Sorry, turn them all in."
I wanna see the blue helmet wearing UN boys collect  300 million weapons from 100 million American households. ( numbers might not be correct ) only a few Americans would actually turn them in voluntarily  & the cops don't have the nads to confiscate them or enough cops to replace the veteran officers that got shot attempting to confiscate.

  Things would get really Ugly here in the USA if that was ever tried.
 

rpyne

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Glock34 wrote:
XD-GEM wrote:
I think that the gun ban folks in the current Administration will not even attempt to come up with "reasonable" restrictions. They will simply seek to have the UN Small Arms Treaty ban individual ownership of firearms, then ratify the treaty in the US Senate, then point to the Constitution's saying that treaties are the highest law of the land, then shrug their collectivist shoulders and say, "Well, nothing we can do. Sorry, turn them all in."
I wanna see the blue helmet wearing UN boys collect 300 million weapons from 100 million American households. ( numbers might not be correct ) only a few Americans would actually turn them in voluntarily & the cops don't have the nads to confiscate them or enough cops to replace the veteran officers that got shot attempting to confiscate.

Things would get really Ugly here in the USA if that was ever tried.
It won't happen that way. It will be a graduated process just like was done in England and Australia. The first effect that CIFTA will have is to make ammunition almost impossible to obtain. One of the provisions of CIFTA is that anyone who is going to do reloading must have a government license to manufacture ammunition.
 

GLOCK21GB

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rpyne wrote:
Glock34 wrote:
XD-GEM wrote:
I think that the gun ban folks in the current Administration will not even attempt to come up with "reasonable" restrictions. They will simply seek to have the UN Small Arms Treaty ban individual ownership of firearms, then ratify the treaty in the US Senate, then point to the Constitution's saying that treaties are the highest law of the land, then shrug their collectivist shoulders and say, "Well, nothing we can do. Sorry, turn them all in."
I wanna see the blue helmet wearing UN boys collect 300 million weapons from 100 million American households. ( numbers might not be correct ) only a few Americans would actually turn them in voluntarily & the cops don't have the nads to confiscate them or enough cops to replace the veteran officers that got shot attempting to confiscate.

Things would get really Ugly here in the USA if that was ever tried.
It won't happen that way. It will be a graduated process just like was done in England and Australia. The first effect that CIFTA will have is to make ammunition almost impossible to obtain. One of the provisions of CIFTA is that anyone who is going to do reloading must have a government license to manufacture ammunition.
:D glad i stocked up when I did......BoowAAAHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: now ammo is getting cheap again...I can add another 10 K to my stock pile this year. YAHOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate
 

okboomer

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A_Berkowitz wrote:
I think that reasonable gun control would be a good thing.
I am glad that you think that, but with the handle of Alan Berkowitz, just what type of inflammatory response are you specifically looking for?



A_Berkowitz wrote:
Too many people are getting killed by guns because of the relaxed gun laws in our country.


Not true, please cite your research or statistical publications that support this position. On my part, I will refer you to these reports that I have found to be less hysterical and terroristic than most of the mainstream media and/or the Brady Campaign report:



A_Berkowitz wrote:
I'm from New York City, and around here the only people that have guns are the police.

Again, not true, as criminals possess guns also despite Bloomberg's buy-back programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_Citywhich states: "In 2008, there were 523 reported murders, a 5.2% rise from the previous year"

I am wondering why you would join a group who is for Open Carry and then post such an inflammatory statement? If you are interested in reasoned discourse, I can steer you towards several very good threads, but if you are simply trolling for outrageous statements to support some theory on violence that you are currently working on, well, there are other places where you should go for that.

ETA: two of my links will not stay in the post ... the first is for Alan Berkowitz
and the second was for the Cato Instituteand are related to the individual sentences I quoted.
 

okboomer

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eye95 wrote:
I can tell you why I, as a teacher, and my immediate collegues would never accept Wikipedia as a source: Articles could say one thing one day and something else the next. They would be full of opinion and "facts" that could not be verified.
Sort of like the University of East Anglia (UEA) Climate Research Unit (CRU) :what:
 
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