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Thread: With health care out of the way, time to define 'reasonable gun control' looms

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    Cross post:

    ================================================



    With health care out of the way, time todefine 'reasonable gun control' is looming



    The debate starts now. Workman's column lists ideas, options and asks for comments!



    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m3d22-Health-care-out-of-way-now-lets-see-what-is-reasonable-gun-control-Start-the-debate-here


    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/yd2lgbb



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    I dont think Gun control will come next, it will be how to legalize all the illegals and have the tax payers continue to pay for them.

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    Attacks on gun rights, especially at the Federal level under Obama, would be an incredibly stupid move.

    Given the power grab that took place on Sunday I don't think that there would need to be much more to trigger a response from the citizens that would change the Cold Civil War that is going on right now in the USA to hot. States have already declared that guns are off limits to federal encroachment and suspicions are high. Can you imagine a "Waco" level event now being anything other than an utter disaster?

    Federal snatches of firearms, house to house searches, seizure if you defend yourself and call the police, or anything that smacks of disarmament, especially in the wake of Heller, would trigger a conflagration too terrible to contemplate.

    Good Article Dave, as usual

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    Wheelgunner wrote:
    Attacks on gun rights, especially at the Federal level under Obama, would be an incredibly stupid move.

    Given the power grab that took place on Sunday I don't think that there would need to be much more to trigger a response from the citizens that would change the Cold Civil War that is going on right now in the USA to hot. States have already declared that guns are off limits to federal encroachment and suspicions are high. Can you imagine a "Waco" level event now being anything other than an utter disaster?

    Federal snatches of firearms, house to house searches, seizure if you defend yourself and call the police, or anything that smacks of disarmament, especially in the wake of Heller, would trigger a conflagration too terrible to contemplate.

    Good Article Dave, as usual
    They'd never do that, though. It'd be something simple, like an ever-increasing tax on owning firearms. They could do it like they did the healthcare bill - taxes go up to 100% of your income, but there's an 85% tax break if you don't own guns.

    They'll come after us one at a time, slowly. There won't be any one thing we can point to and say "this is the last straw, we're marching on capitol hill", and the people in power are smart enough to keep it that way.

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    The health care fight isn't over.

    But to put in my .02c, Dave, I think once McDonald vs. Chicago is won things will definitely start to shift the way of pro-gun.

    WA State incorporating the 2nd Amendment was a good step forward, as it became case law to be used in McD vs. Chikago.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    The article says the following:
    "If Democrats retain control of Congress, expect the next “big item” on the political agenda next year to be an attempt to renew the ban on so-called “assault weapons,” which are far better defined as Modern Sporting Rifles (MSR). They are, after all, widely known as "the party of gun control." If the Congress can get away with such a ban, then even if the Supreme Court rules favorably as anticipated that the Second Amendment is incorporated to the states, Legislatures across the landscape will start considering seriously ratcheting down on gun rights."

    This is a silly article. Expect this based upon what? Based upon they the fact that they are known as the party of gun control? The whole thing is just an elaborate exercise in creating a straw man.

    Are you saying that something has been proposed?
    ]

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    WA Atty Gen McKenna has said he will mount a legal challenge to the recent health care debacle

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    Attacks on gun rights, especially at the Federal level under Obama, would be an incredibly stupid move.
    Incredibly stupid? Yes! Impossible to conceive of them doing it? Sadly, no...


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    WA Atty Gen McKenna has said he will mount a legal challenge to the recent health care debacle
    He has already joined attorneys general from at least 9 other states to do so. And as one would expect, Queen Christine is not at all pleased. Screw her, and the phony ballots she rode in on.
    I sent a thank your email to McKenna earlier today.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I believe that in many repsects the country is becoming generally more liberal.....that is with the exception of firearms...Americans on both sides agree that law-abiding citizens have a right to firearms for self-defense--and sport.


    An "assault weapons ban" is a losing battle that the (D) will not engage in. There are some (D) that would support it but most (D) would not. Unlike the healthcare bill, a "assault weapons ban" would be political suicide.
    I am sure there will be some "you f-ing commie" accusation :celebrate

    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    rickomatic wrote:
    Screw her, and the phony ballots she rode in on.
    I would love to see the data on this.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Sylvia Plath wrote:
    rickomatic wrote:
    Screw her, and the phony ballots she rode in on.
    I would love to see the data on this.
    She won only one out of three ballot counts. She complained until they were counted in her favor, then she was satisfied. I can only imagine how loud Dino Rossi's facepalm was.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    If they can pass this bill forcing people like me who don't want to buy health insurance they can do anything they want.

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    I still cant believe Obama bin laden has held his presidency as long as he has. I keep thinking "America" will stand up together and take him out of office. All the polls I see have had the majority against everything he has done, cash for junkers, CEO bonus bailouts, 1st time homeowner, forget those losing their homes bailout, and health care "control", And comming soon to asouthern statenear you, Operation open borders...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    WA Atty Gen McKenna has said he will mount a legal challenge to the recent health care debacle
    What will happen is that the State Legislature early next year can prohibit funds from being spent on the lawsuit and force his withdraw from the case. He may be attorney general, but the Legislature controls the money and the purse strings.

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    amzbrady wrote:
    I still cant believe Obama bin laden has held his presidency as long as he has. I keep thinking "America" will stand up together and take him out of office. All the polls I see have had the majority against everything he has done, cash for junkers, CEO bonus bailouts, 1st time homeowner, forget those losing their homes bailout, and health care "control", And comming soon to asouthern statenear you, Operation open borders...
    You know what I'm all for immigrants coming to this country to work hard start business's and what not but those people won't be coming anymore thanks to the police state, now you'll have Americans leeching off the wealth of others until it's too much of a burden for those who create wealth.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    My own response, which I'll post over in Dave's GRE:

    I disagree with the belief that the Democrats will go right after gun control and gun regulation right after the 2010 elections. In fact, SCOTUS and the federal court system will put most gun control laws out of the reach of the political class. There is almost 2 dozen already filed or potentially to be filed against the Assault Weapons bans, carry bans, other restrictive laws. Every time SCOTUS has spoken about the RKBA, the political opinion of the country tilts more and more towards further RKBA freedoms.

    A lot of folk will say "Well, 60 percent of the country was against the Health Care thing", but you need to look at the reasons WHY they're are against it in terms of underlying reasons for it's opposition. Too many people in the 2A community that I've seen (again, seen, not actually seen here) are way too skin-deep in terms of seeing underlying problems and analysis to be effective arguers of your point. Let me demonstrate the point:

    Pro-HCR Arguer: Well, it'll save people's lives.

    Con-HCR Arguer: Well, 60 percent of the people don't support it.

    Pro-HCR arguer: The only reason they won't support it because there's no governmental option to compete against the private insurers. You put in the "public option" its support for the overall bill goes up to 65 percent.

    Con-HCR arguer: Well...SIXTY PERCENT ARE AGAINST IT! COMMUNISM, SOCIALISM, NAZI-ISM!

    That isn't the way to make arguments in terms of dealing with political debates. You folks need to educate yourselves on polling statistics in arguments, because if the only method of modern organizing the gun rights movement emulates the Tea Party movement, GUN OWNERS ARE BEYOND SCREWED IN THE POLITICAL ARENA. Right now, the only shot at taking down the HCR bill is through the legal arena, which is also a dicey game when it isn't involving a fundamental constitutional right. It ain't gonna happen.

    The National Parks Gun ban repeal passed by 67 votes last year. The CCW reciprocity bill got 58 votes. We can rely on 57 of those votes (Mark Pryor is an obvious D-bag opportunist), so we're two votes short. Post McDonald, we'll probably have the votes to do it.

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    People will support anything that gives them money at others' expense - and that's how capitalism works when a society loses its work ethic and morality. Neither ethics nor morality can (or should) be forced or legislated, so the 30% of Americans that have it are screwed because of the 70% that don't. We need to find a way to use peoples' worst tendencies to work for society, not against it, and the answer is not socialism's forced "equality".

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    Gray Peterson wrote:
    [...]
    A lot of folk will say "Well, 60 percent of the country was against the Health Care thing", but you need to look at the reasons WHY they're are against it in terms of underlying reasons for it's opposition. Too many people in the 2A community that I've seen (again, seen, not actually seen here) are way too skin-deep in terms of seeing underlying problems and analysis to be effective arguers of your point. Let me demonstrate the point:

    Pro-HCR Arguer: Well, it'll save people's lives.

    Con-HCR Arguer: Well, 60 percent of the people don't support it.

    Pro-HCR arguer: The only reason they won't support it because there's no governmental option to compete against the private insurers. You put in the "public option" its support for the overall bill goes up to 65 percent.

    Con-HCR arguer: Well...SIXTY PERCENT ARE AGAINST IT! COMMUNISM, SOCIALISM, NAZI-ISM!

    That isn't the way to make arguments in terms of dealing with political debates. You folks need to educate yourselves on polling statistics in arguments, because if the only method of modern organizing the gun rights movement emulates the Tea Party movement, GUN OWNERS ARE BEYOND SCREWED IN THE POLITICAL ARENA. Right now, the only shot at taking down the HCR bill is through the legal arena, which is also a dicey game when it isn't involving a fundamental constitutional right. It ain't gonna happen.
    [...]
    The argument "con-HCR" was being forced to pay for a good or service to live in America, as well as your obvious bias against people thinking they have to earn what they have.

    In 2014 I'm gonna have to buy health care whether I like it or not, or be fined for it. Last time I checked, my Constitution said nothing about that.

    Paying out of my split for an insurance policy when I'm perfectly fine so I can fund the next Coffee Party member who runs to the emergency room because he has a headache.

    Just saying.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    G22Paddy wrote:
    Sylvia Plath wrote:
    rickomatic wrote:
    Screw her, and the phony ballots she rode in on.
    I would love to see the data on this.
    She won only one out of three ballot counts. She complained until they were counted in her favor, then she was satisfied. I can only imagine how loud Dino Rossi's facepalm was.

    Apparently she won 2 out of 3 vote counts...then a court ruling. Either she really won or she took a section out of Bush's 2000 election. Kinda funny how Rossi challenged ballot for Gregoire and four of the votes right off the bat for Rossi were cast by felons. I love Wiki:

    The election was held on November 2, 2004, with the initial count showing Gregoire trailing Rossi by 261 votes. However, a legally mandated machine recount reduced that lead to only 42 votes, then a hand count that was requested and funded by the state's Democratic Party gave Gregoire a 10-vote lead. Following a State Supreme Court ruling that allowed several hundred ballots from amzbrady wrote:
    I still cant believe Obama bin laden has held his presidency as long as he has. I keep thinking "America" will stand up together and take him out of office. All the polls I see have had the majority against everything he has done, cash for junkers, CEO bonus bailouts, 1st time homeowner, forget those losing their homes bailout, and health care "control", And comming soon to asouthern statenear you, Operation open borders...
    Many people are against the Healthcare Bill because it did not go far enough. To say that people collectively are against it because it is "socialist" is an overgeneralization. You must get down into the meat of the discontent to realize what is really going on. Political posturing is not an efective way of sifting the (D) from the (R).
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    killchain wrote:
    The argument "con-HCR" was being forced to pay for a good or service to live in America, as well as your obvious bias against people thinking they have to earn what they have.
    Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit I take it? Did I make a statement that I support the bill that passed Congress? The answer would be no.

    I was saying that the arguments against the HCR bill made by the Tea Party movement (which was the primary grassroots organizers against the HCR bill) completely failed. It looked like they were going to be 4 or 5 votes short until members of the Tea Party movement repeatedly called Congressman Jon Lewis the N-word in a chorus, repeatedly called Barney Frank the other "f-word", and spit on a Congressman (this person has been arrested). They can claim "The Liberals Lied and Set Us Up" all you want, but they failed, and no one will remember what the Pro-HCR folks did to "set them up", because it's over and the Pro-HCR folks won.

    What I am saying is that IF the Democratic Party decides to push gun control like in 93 and 94 post 2010, we should NOT in any way emulate the Tea Party movement.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Gray Peterson wrote:
    killchain wrote:
    The argument "con-HCR" was being forced to pay for a good or service to live in America, as well as your obvious bias against people thinking they have to earn what they have.
    Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit I take it? Did I make a statement that I support the bill that passed Congress? The answer would be no.

    I was saying that the arguments against the HCR bill made by the Tea Party movement (which was the primary grassroots organizers against the HCR bill) completely failed. It looked like they were going to be 4 or 5 votes short until members of the Tea Party movement repeatedly called Congressman Jon Lewis the N-word in a chorus, repeatedly called Barney Frank the other "f-word", and spit on a Congressman (this person has been arrested). They can claim "The Liberals Lied and Set Us Up" all you want, but they failed, and no one will remember what the Pro-HCR folks did to "set them up", because it's over and the Pro-HCR folks won.

    What I am saying is that IF the Democratic Party decides to push gun control like in 93 and 94 post 2010, we should NOT in any way emulate the Tea Party movement.
    The Tea Party is a great idea but when it becomes mired in homophobic, racist and attacking congress people physically (yes, spitting is a physical attack) they then become the party of homophobic, racist spitters and not the party of a "better America" whatever that might actually mean.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Sylvia (and Gray),

    You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    kparker wrote:
    Sylvia (and Gray),

    You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.
    LOL, I definately know better than to do that. I don't trust the media. I hope that no one here thinks that I trust the media because I seriously don't. The real question is do most people do what I do....do most people read responses from both sides to come up with a balanced decision, NO. I read both sides, listen to both sides and form my own conclusion of what is really going on here. I feel that there is nothing negative going on with the Healcare Bill. Are there bad things in it, yes. Would there be bad things if the (R) were in power and pushed something forward, yes. I do not concern myself with "conservative" or "liberal" BS.....I formulate my own view.

    One thing I can say about America as a whole is that we have decended into partisanship to the infinite-degree and that scares the he11 out of me personally. If we continue down this road we are going to hjave a breakdown in social order--something we probably are in need of, unfortunately.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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