Health care and Guns.......

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They can't hurt me much if any, and I still detest it being rammed down our throats. I have my own insurance, Medicare and SSincomes plus my retirement from an oil company.

In my jail, I never tell inmates 'because I can'. That's what guv is doingto us'because they can'.:cuss:

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You are typical, you resent this being rammed, but you still want SS & Medicare? Huh?

It's all being "rammed" down your throats. health care, war, welfare, public education

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No. It's all being rammed down our throats. The ponzi SS is paying off for me and my generation who had no choice. But I will get the part I paid.....others won't.

My retirement from an oil co.....I earned and it comes with dental and health for $70 a month. I had a 401 and am still comfortable.....future generations won't.

Quit paying taxes. You don't have to. Answer onlyONE question on the census.

I've been fighting for many years (I carried a gun in 1955 on my paper route) when I was 13 years old.

Been there, done that.....my actions spoke for my life.

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Pace wrote:

You are typical, you resent this being rammed, but you still want SS & Medicare? Huh?

It's all being "rammed" down your throats. health care, war, welfare, public education

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I am typical. Absolutely.

Nobody has sued the government over the Government going to war for what they deem to be an "illegitimate war". The people have not reclaimed their government.

I am not on welfare. Thanks for the commentary though.

Public Education is optional. Don't like that? Too bad. It's the truth.


Social Security is horrendously broken, and people take advantage of it all the time, despite the process being ridiculously drawn out, and the claims process absolutely absurd. Don't overestimate the patience of lazy people to abuse a system I guess.


Almost every branch of the government for which we are taxed, is hideously run, extremely inefficient, and in no way shape or form a positive reflection on the efficiency of our nation.

Ever tried to get a claim for VA assistance? Yeah, that craps so easy right? The VA doesn't even have .1% of the amount of people that this garbage bill mandates, and they struggle every day to do anything efficiently.

And you validate the implementation of a healthcare bill that first and foremost has no constitutional basis whatsoever for its inception, and will inevitably end up with the vast majority of the nation to depend on it.


Let's see:

The Feds tax tobacco via interstate commerce. However, you aren't forced to purchase cigarettes, let alone everybody elses.

The Feds tax alcohol via interstate commerce. However, you aren't forced to pay for everybody elses booze.


Under what specific authority does the Federal Government believe it possesses the power to mandate the purchasing of non-government products?


I have to laugh at the fact that some people who are clapping in support of this bill are incapable of processing the unconstitutional nature of the bill, yet vehemently swear to uphold the Constitution.

Amazing.

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I'm not sure what you are saying, are you agreeing with me.

It's all rammed down our throat, you have to pay for social security, for welfare, for medicare, its in our taxes when we get checks for working.

Public education isn't optional, you have to pay for it, even if you dont use it!!

What are you talking about? We are being forced for health care, but we are forced for all the other things, they aren't "optional"

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Pace wrote:

I'm not sure what you are saying, are you agreeing with me.

It's all rammed down our throat, you have to pay for social security, for welfare, for medicare, its in our taxes when we get checks for working.

Public education isn't optional, you have to pay for it, even if you dont use it!!

What are you talking about? We are being forced for health care, but we are forced for all the other things, they aren't "optional"

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I am agreeing that many things are "rammed down our throats", but that the use of Interstate Commerce to require compulsory participation is a strict "no-go".

Hence my example of cigarettes, and alcohol, which are specifically taxed based off of Interstate Commerce law, which is the basis for the institution of this healthcare bill.

I am not sure if you are aware by the way, but there are breaks in taxes for parents who opt to homeschool, as opposed to public school, even though they were only recently applied.

My demonstration of Social Security, and the VA among others, is to demonstrate that these "good faith" programs have not been efficient by any measure, and instituting nationwide healthcare that forces people to purchase healthcare insurance, which now applies to 300+ million people, is not terribly bright, nor prudent!


Just because something is, or has been forced on us, does not mean it is proper or acceptable to continue to let that kind of treatment to go on.


Could you please reinforce your commentary about alcohol, guns, and tobacco, and elaborate as to how it parallels the Healthcare bill?

I am thinking we do not see eye to eye. That is my position at the moment.

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slowfiveoh wrote:

Social Security is horrendously broken, and people take advantage of it all the time, despite the process being ridiculously drawn out, and the claims process absolutely absurd. Don't overestimate the patience of lazy people to abuse a system I guess.

Almost every branch of the government for which we are taxed, is hideously run, extremely inefficient, and in no way shape or form a positive reflection on the efficiency of our nation.

Ever tried to get a claim for VA assistance? Yeah, that craps so easy right? The VA doesn't even have .1% of the amount of people that this garbage bill mandates, and they struggle every day to do anything efficiently.

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Something I've always found amusing are the politicians who break government and public programs and then point to them and say "see, it's broke, it doesn't work!!!" It's the equivelant of me saying "Hey, you can't walk because your leg's broke," shooting you in the knee cap, and then saying "See, I was right!" Government, the economy, what have you, is as efficient as we make it, but don't be surprised or say it's inherently inefficient when you cut out it's legs from underneath it and expect it to walk.

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ABNinfantryman wrote:

Something I've always found amusing are the politicians who break government and public programs and then point to them and say "see, it's broke, it doesn't work!!!" It's the equivelant of me saying "Hey, you can't walk because your leg's broke," shooting you in the knee cap, and then saying "See, I was right!" Government, the economy, what have you, is as efficient as we make it, but don't be surprised or say it's inherently inefficient when you cut out it's legs from underneath it and expect it to walk.

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I find it difficult to believe that a fellow soldier cannot see (acknowledge?) the massive deficiencies that are not drawn from any sort of corruption.

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slowfiveoh wrote:

I find it difficult to believe that a fellow soldier cannot see (acknowledge?) the massive deficiencies that are not drawn from any sort of corruption.

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Which is what I was speaking towards, I acknowledge and see the corruption quite well, but it is man made and thus not inherent but determined by the people voted to work in the government.

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ABNinfantryman wrote:

slowfiveoh wrote:

I find it difficult to believe that a fellow soldier cannot see (acknowledge?) the massive deficiencies that are not drawn from any sort of corruption.

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Which is what I was speaking towards, I acknowledge and see the corruption quite well, but it is man made and thus not inherent but determined by the people voted to work in the government.

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People need to be accountable for their congressman, and hold them to their duties, basically.


If that's what you are saying, I vehemently agree.

By the way, thanks for keeping up the fight man.

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slowfiveoh wrote:

People need to be accountable for their congressman, and hold them to their duties, basically.


If that's what you are saying, I vehemently agree.

By the way, thanks for keeping up the fight man.

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Exactly what I meant. I was going to give a long explanation of how I've seen my fair share of efficient and inefficient organizations within the military and how the inefficient ones are the results of corrupt leaders, but I had something come up. Oddly enough dealing with that exact same topic.

As to the fight, it's my pleasure.

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Pace wrote:

I posted elsewhere, have you ever met anyone at the TEA PARTY who says they are against health care, but when you ask if their welfare or social security (same thing) is taken away, they get defensive?

The problem with the health care debate is that its complete fake on both sides. The republicans are claiming it will create a public health care system that will fall apart. It doesn't at all. If you have health insurance with your employer, you keep it. The other side says it will make affordable health care for everyone... probably not true, because it still requires people to pay even if they can't.

As for guns, has nothing to do with guns.

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Wanna take a stab at guessing WHY? Here's a hint... the new 'healtcare' bill hasn't been taken out of their paychecks for their ENTIRE LIVES yet. IE: They haven't been forced to 'invest' in it. Programs such as social security on the other hand, have already taken thousands upon thousands of dollars out of people's income, and they want it back. Rightly so. (Especially since one could get a better rate of return on a crappy CD than what you get from the social security system. Hell, it may be a LOT less than that as soon as all these shortfalls in that system come to the surface.)

I for one would GLADLY stop paying into the BS that is social security, NOT pay a share into welfare programs, NOT pay into this healthcare monstrosity, and in turn invest MY money how *I* deem sensible. Of course, I'd want the money back that I've paid into these systems thus far since I've received zero benefit from any of them.

I won't get into the whole 'if you like waht you have, you get to keep it' thing except to say that if anyone believes that some employers won't DROP coverage in favor of letting employees go suckle at the teet of the Fed, they're living in a fantasy world.

Definitely won't argue the 'has nothing to do with guns' thing. I don't even really think the fed will be focusing on anything else BUT healthcare even now that the bill is passed. There's a crapload more to do (spend spend spend!) and between defending the crap in the bill from angry citizens, and defending the bill itself from numerous lawsuits, constitutional debate, etc. they've still got their hands full with this crap.

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jimd_21 wrote:

Just a though.....Would love to here some opinions...

With the passing of the health care bill, could that affect gun owners? They could state that guns in the home could be harmful to your health or your families health....the examples they would use would be irresponsible gun owners leaving their guns were their children can have access and have an accidental shooting....or taking the gun to school. Or when their is an accidental discharge when handling or cleaning the gun and someone is hurt. All these scenario's would lead to a emergency room visit, affecting the cost of health care. This idea was brought to my attention and i could see this being a real possibility.

Would love to hear other opinions.

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While it is true that there is absolutely nothing in the bill that mentions gun ownership, what is to stop one of the many beaurocratic panels this thing creates from saying that gun owners are prohibited or must pay more (a lot more) for the coverage? If coverage is required and you own guns, then you can just pay the fine and still get no coverage.

SS is a loser, plain and simple. I am 57 years old and if I start collecting my maximum benefit NOWthat I wouldthat they show I'll get if I retire at 67, I'll have to live till I'm 94 just toget the money I've paid in back, and that don't account for the tax I'll have to pay on it, AGAIN.

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Most of you guys seem to agree, ALL the government programs are a waste of money. The problem is that most of the people protesting health care, if you asked them to give away those benefits (social security, free education, etc) they would say "No, please don't touch those" and run away.

The problem right now we face is not just about health care, but a general selfishness. People say "Don't take our money to pay for this... but don't stop paying me for what I get." I've spoken to Tea Party "activists" and none of them want to give up all their benefits, their welfare checks (I consider social security welfare, among other things.) I found some Tea Party activists taking rides in public transportation ... are they willing to give that up?

We all have some form of socialism in this country, from public transportation to public schools. What are you willing to give up to give back?

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Pace wrote:

Most of you guys seem to agree, ALL the government programs are a waste of money. The problem is that most of the people protesting health care, if you asked them to give away those benefits (social security, free education, etc) they would say "No, please don't touch those" and run away.

The problem right now we face is not just about health care, but a general selfishness. People say "Don't take our money to pay for this... but don't stop paying me for what I get." I've spoken to Tea Party "activists" and none of them want to give up all their benefits, their welfare checks (I consider social security welfare, among other things.) I found some Tea Party activists taking rides in public transportation ... are they willing to give that up?

We all have some form of socialism in this country, from public transportation to public schools. What are you willing to give up to give back?

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Dog gonnit, Pace. I have to agree with you on this. Who'ld thunk it? Most Tea Party people say that they want to return to a Constitutional government, but most would scream bloody murder when they find out that "their" program, or agency, or department had to be done away with as a result.

Personally, I would give it all up. I would like to get my SS money back, but I don't need it, so if I don't, oh well.

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Pace wrote:

Most of you guys seem to agree, ALL the government programs are a waste of money. The problem is that most of the people protesting health care, if you asked them to give away those benefits (social security, free education, etc) they would say "No, please don't touch those" and run away.

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The majority of the plans in this country you are referring to, were certainly opposed during the time, and the Constitutionality of Social Security was tested back during Roosevelts administration at the supreme court level (Helvering vs. Davis).

The outcome, was that the court simply denied to make a decision.

Interesting.

I think your generalization of "Protestors and tea-partiers" is not accurate whatsoever, and is an attempt to vilify the same unfairly, or somehow make your point "more logical" by painting them all as hypocrites.

So let me make one think clear on this front for you:

You can have my SS taxes, and my SS benefits. I do not want them, and would gladly give them up.

I am not on welfare. I do not like welfare. You can have it, and I would gladly give it up.

Public Education in this country, is terrible. One of the worst in the world. To even try to use this as a shining example of acceptability, is a fallacy.

Public transportation? LOL! This is not a federally funded system, and can be voted in or out at the local level! How does opting to ride a bus, even remotely compare to being forced to buy healthcare insurance?


Pace wrote:

We all have some form of socialism in this country, from public transportation to public schools. What are you willing to give up to give back?

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Public transportation is NOT "Socialism", inasmuch that you pay a fee when you choose to hop on! Ratification and all other forms of institution of Public Transit occurs at the STATE level or lower. This leaves it on local economy (City/State/Town) to oversee the inception and operation of these programs. Not Federal Government.

When these programs are created by the local economy, they are by definition not socialist!

You cannot pin long ears on every farm animal , and call it a donkey for purposes of convenience!


Workers in this country have complained long and hard about the imposition of taxes from these various "government programs" since long before you or I were born! The rapid and increasing taxation is unreasonable. Back in 2007 with an income of 70k/yr, I found 21%+ of my paycheck DISAPPEARING into federal pockets, for programs I have never, and am likely to never use!

The way you are asking your questions, you are essentially saying:

"Things like Obamacare have existed in the past, whats one more thing?"
"You lost 21% of your paycheck before, what's 30-35% now?"

Those are some really crappy questions! ESPECIALLY in this economy.

I would like to add that the statements about other countries "having something we don't", that is thrown around by so many supporters of this bill, is another whiny statement derived from an entitlement mindset. It is like seeing another kid with a lollypop, and demanding you have one as well. Horrible mindset.

What's also apparent, especially in these other countries (I lived in Germany for 2 years, and had German friends), is they are taxed OUT THE POSTERIOR!

Also, there are specifics about their healthcare model, that is just flat out wrong.


Still, everyone wants the lollypop.

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I think if you listen to most what I say, I ask for rational thinking.

For example, do I think everyone should be open carrying? No. I don't. I personally think some people need to rethink if they carry guns. However, I defend the right of people to make that choice.

Do I think abortion is wrong? 100% yes. I think we need to prevent as many abortions, I believe in the importance of life. Yet, I don't think the government a civil entity should be interfering in people's life.

How about Obama? I disagree with 95% of what he is doing, but at the same time I think it shows great progress that a Black Man was elected President and at the same time, another Black Man protested him with a AR-15. Would I rather it be another Black Man (or White Woman, or Chinese Transexual) yes! I would like to see my LP candidates win the WhiteHouse.

I also want to challenge people to be sympathetic to other people. For example, I do not believe in the Death Penalty, but when I was involved in catching Child-Predators, it was hard to keep that belief, especially in the face of a grieving family. Still, I know that revenge doesn't serve a society's best interests.

What I hate about politics is in this Country is that politicians tell you that you MUST believe a certain way, then you must believe another certain way. That if you are a republican, you must vote this way, a democrat, you must vote another. It's ridiculous.

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Pace wrote:

...

I also want to challenge people to be sympathetic to other people. For example, I do not believe in the Death Penalty, but when I was involved in catching Child-Predators, it was hard to keep that belief, especially in the face of a grieving family. Still, I know that revenge doesn't serve a society's best interests.

What I hate about politics is in this Country is that politicians tell you that you MUST believe a certain way, then you must believe another certain way. That if you are a republican, you must vote this way, a democrat, you must vote another. It's ridiculous.

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As to the former, it is hard for me to envision reasonably keeping a child-predator alive, investing millions of dollars over their life, to wait for them to rot away in prison. I would rather pay for a $50 shot, and never worry about that particular predator ever again.

Difference of opinion there.

As to the latter, that is an enormous problem with this country, and to that end, I agree 100%.

Government founded by people.
Media founded by people.
Media swayed by government.
Special interest begins.

Decades later, most people are nothing more than a social sheep, grazing on whatever the government throws their way.


One of the major fallacies to Universal Healthcare, is that there would be "no death panels".

When there is a shortage of supplies on any one front, expect a convention to be called forth as "necessary". I wonder what that would be called. Interesting that all other socialized healthcare in the world has them, but somehow ours won't.

Sorry Timmy. Your heart was deflected to a congressman. You don't get to live this year.

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What I want (and I suspect most Tea Partiers want) is a return to federalism. If a State, such as MA or TN wants to have universal coverage, and the people generally support it, go for it. I just will choose not to live there.

When the federal government passes a mandate that we all must buy a "qualifying" health care plan or pay a fine or go to jail, then we have no place to go to restore our freedom.

We seem to have forgotten that this country was founded on the idea that States were individual nations, ceding only enough authority to the feds to allow people and goods to move easily between States and to provide a united front should we need to defend ourselves.

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eye95 wrote:

What I want (and I suspect most Tea Partiers want) is a return to federalism. If a State, such as MA or TN wants to have universal coverage, and the people generally support it, go for it. I just will choose not to live there.

When the federal government passes a mandate that we all must buy a "qualifying" health care plan or pay a fine or go to jail, then we have no place to go to restore our freedom.

We seem to have forgotten that this country was founded on the idea that States were individual nations, ceding only enough authority to the feds to allow people and goods to move easily between States and to provide a united front should we need to defend ourselves.

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Bravo, bravo, bravo!!! Someone that gets it.