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Thread: The Columbian - Prosecutor mulls case of man accused of scary carry statute violation

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    UPDATE March 23, 2010: http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/m...arry-case-near

    --

    Just a few thoughts - the article below implies the Defendant was essentially loitering near or at a store and a previous article from another news outfit claimed he was was "belligerant" when ejected from a mall for open carrying.

    Of course I take these allegations with a grain of salt - but just pause and consider them for a moment as if they are true.

    If your goal is to either avoid prosecution from vague laws like Washington's scary carry statute, or simply promote gun rights by normalizing holstered gun carry in everyday life, or both, then you should strive todo neither of these things - small facts mean big things when you are carrying a gun.

    Don't loiter - If you are loitering near a store front, or even look like it, it can easily and reasonably be said you are casing the establishment - see the Terry v. Ohio case establishing the gold standard for when police may seize you and pat you down for weapons and disarm you - the store was being cased by bad guys hanging about.

    Don't be beligerant when asked to leave a private establishment - they have every right to ask you to leave and you should immediately beat feet with a smile on your face.

    ---

    http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/m...-with-gun-case

    SNIP


    By John Branton
    Columbian staff writer

    Tuesday, March 23, 2010





    A man who was ticketed for wearing an openly displayed pistol outside an Albertsons shopping center on Friday was packing a total of 35 bullets — including those loaded in the holstered .45-caliber gun and in two ammunition clips.

    But Kurk Robert Kirby, 26, made no menacing statements or gestures to anyone at 5000 E. Fourth Plain Blvd., police say. He simply stood around near stores for 10 to 15 minutes before someone called 911, according to a Vancouver Police Department report.

    On Monday, Kevin McClure, supervising prosecutor with the City Attorney’s Office, said he was reviewing the police reports and had not yet decided what to do in the case.

    The ticket alleges that Kirby committed the crime of unlawful carrying of a weapon, a gross misdemeanor that carries, if a person is convicted, a sentence of up to one year in jail and a $5,000 fine, McClure said.

    But Kirby’s attorney, Christopher Dumm of Vancouver, said the officer who issued the ticket made an error.

    “We’re confident Mr. Kirby didn’t break any law,” he said. “Washington is an open-carry state.”

    He added: “The police deserve my respect and they have it, but nobody is perfect and mistakes are made.”

    . . .

    Meanwhile, the case has generated many comments on the Internet and is being monitored by groups and blogs in the open-carry movement.

    Activists with the movement have been making visibly armed appearances such as Kirby’s in several states, to make the point that they believe the practice is legal and constitutionally protected.

    Such comments can be read on Open Carry.org, which calls itself “a pro-gun Internet community focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.”

    . . .

    The Vancouver police report says officers were called to the strip mall shortly after 4 p.m. Friday, because a store owner had watched Kirby standing around wearing his gun.

    . . .

    Kirby’s wife, Dawn Kirby, walked up and told officers she was wearing a concealed gun and had a permit for it, the report said.

    Checking computers for the minivan the Kirbys arrived in, officers learned that the pair had staged an open carry the day before at Westfield Vancouver mall, the report said. Security officers had escorted them from the mall and reported they had been “belligerent.”

    After receiving a copy of the ticket, Kirby “said he did not understand what the ‘big deal’ was because he had gone to about 10 different stores in the last several months with his gun in plain view and no one had ever complained,” the report said.

    Kirby didn’t mention being told to leave the mall the day before, police said.

    . . .


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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Very good points, especially if you have been asked to leave. Hand them a brochure, be courtesous, be polite, be professional. Get names and follow up when cooler heads prevail.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    There is way to much information that we do not have to make any sort of informed judgment. One man’s loitering is another man’s waiting for his wife to return from the restroom. Also, witnesses will often expound on things. For example, if the person who called the police to report the MWAG later found it lawful, he might embellish a bit to justify himself for having made the call.

    Also, ifa mall or other business isn’t signed in such a way that a reasonable person can tell they don’t want you carrying a firearm, then it’s certainly reasonable to expect someone to enter armed. I personally believe that there are grounds to sue for public humiliation if the mall, knowing they have a policy against firearms, intentionally leaves the issue ambiguous and confronts the carrier. If they don’t want guns in the mall, put up a freaking sign! Such signs, red circle/slash with a pistol inside, are available off-the-shelf so no special printing is required. There IS a reason they don’t put the signs up.



    Anyway, we don’t have any of the facts for this incident yet.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Also, ifa mall or other business isn’t signed in such a way that a reasonable person can tell they don’t want you carrying a firearm, then it’s certainly reasonable to expect someone to enter armed. I personally believe that there are grounds to sue for public humiliation if the mall, knowing they have a policy against firearms, intentionally leaves the issue ambiguous and confronts the carrier. If they don’t want guns in the mall, put up a freaking sign! Such signs, red circle/slash with a pistol inside, are available off-the-shelf so no special printing is required. There IS a reason they don’t put the signs up.
    I see no "action for humilition" for being asked to leave private property, and the last thing we want is to invite signs - invite signs, and they will come!

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    Also, ifa mall or other business isn’t signed in such a way that a reasonable person can tell they don’t want you carrying a firearm, then it’s certainly reasonable to expect someone to enter armed. I personally believe that there are grounds to sue for public humiliation if the mall, knowing they have a policy against firearms, intentionally leaves the issue ambiguous and confronts the carrier. If they don’t want guns in the mall, put up a freaking sign! Such signs, red circle/slash with a pistol inside, are available off-the-shelf so no special printing is required. There IS a reason they don’t put the signs up.
    I see no "action for humilition" for being asked to leave private property, and the last thing we want is to invite signs - invite signs, and they will come!
    I think they don’t post the signs because they want the issue to be ambiguous. Being asked to leave isn’t humiliating in and of itself, however, if they call the police and make a big scene out of it, that can certainly put you in the spotlight.

    Invite the signs! Who cares? If the mall is signed and I need to shop there, I’ll carry concealed in defiance of the sign. At least then I would know they don’t want me carrying openly.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    Also, ifa mall or other business isn’t signed in such a way that a reasonable person can tell they don’t want you carrying a firearm, then it’s certainly reasonable to expect someone to enter armed. I personally believe that there are grounds to sue for public humiliation if the mall, knowing they have a policy against firearms, intentionally leaves the issue ambiguous and confronts the carrier. If they don’t want guns in the mall, put up a freaking sign! Such signs, red circle/slash with a pistol inside, are available off-the-shelf so no special printing is required. There IS a reason they don’t put the signs up.
    I see no "action for humilition" for being asked to leave private property, and the last thing we want is to invite signs - invite signs, and they will come!
    I think they don’t post the signs because they want the issue to be ambiguous. Being asked to leave isn’t humiliating in and of itself, however, if they call the police and make a big scene out of it, that can certainly put you in the spotlight.

    Invite the signs! Who cares? If the mall is signed and I need to shop there, I’ll carry concealed in defiance of the sign. At least then I would know they don’t want me carrying openly.
    Signs have no authority other than a request in the state of Washington. Although most malls do have a sign wherethier main customer service booth is inthe mall. Mostread that all weapons legal and illegal are prohibited. Most on this forum understand that CC is prudent in a public setting like the mall that is also private property. Until the 2A is incorporated AND there is some court cases that expand on the notion of 'public accomodation.' I would rather that we don't invite the signs either, even if they hold no weight.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    I am texting a LEO in Vancouver/Clark County this morning. They are expecting a training bulletin stating that it is legal to open carry. And, if you are on private property and you are asked to leave you must comply or face trespass charges. He does not have a timeline at this point, but he has been with the department for 10+ years and believes we will see it very soon.
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    Mike wrote: Mike it looks like they changed the URL after you posted. Here's the 2 I found after a search.

    March 23rd - http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/m...with-gun-case/

    March 24th - http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/m...rry-case-near/

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    NavyLT, that was a brilliant comment you wrote to the article in the second link. Bravo Zulu!

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    Good job in those comments to NavyLT and gogodogs, way to educate.

    My favorite ignoramus was the guy who said you give up your right to open carry in WA when you get a concealed pistol license. I lol'd pretty hard.

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    I noticed he didn't reply with the RCW when I asked for it.

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    Right now it looks like there is already a court case in the system against him.

    Case #91647 in the Clark County System. Whether or not that is just prelim, I dont know. It will be interesting to hear the real facts of the case.

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    I Live and carry in Vancouver primary carry pistol is a S&W M&P .45. I have had nearly 98% good experiences with open carry in Vancouver including the area this guy was Ticketed. (I do have a CCP) The only issue was Home Depot by cosco on andreson and the engraving store at the mall.

    Both places asked me to leave and I did so willingly the worst of the 2 was home depot after an hour or so of shopping and at the check out counter with a full cart of items security told me to leave my items in the cart and leave. Mall security has never bothered me but I am always shopping and buying things when there.

    I did make a complaint to both shops and received an letter form home depot corporate stating I am welcome back any time while carrying but I still have not and will not return to either store they lost my business forever.

    My neighbor's kids until yesterday attended the martial arts center next to albertsons. The shop owner has lost along time customer over his paranoia.

    Clark County Sheriffs Department & WSP I have never had an issue what so ever any interaction has been positive. It seems they know the laws and mind their own biz. Most CCSD Officers I have talked to are pro 2nd and like firearms.

    Now for VPD it's been a 50/50 I have been stopped (Terry Stop) a couple times in a parking lot just for an ID check "Matched the description of a suspect" I have never been ticketed but given plenty of lectures how they feel uneasy with civilians walking around with firearms in the open and how its their job not mine.

    Funniest one with VPD was at a Gas Station (Town Pump) on 4th plain blvd. I just finished pumping gas in to my hummer was standing by the door talking to the store owner and got stopped? I was questioned because they said I matched the description of a suspect who robbed a convince store in the area early that night.

    I asked the officer do many people rob stores in a $2,000 3pc suit driving a $50K vehicle? They ran my I.D. They asked me why I was in the neighborhood? I said, I decline to answer any questions! They asked me if I was here buying drugs or had any drugs other weapons and asked if they could search my vehicle? I said no I dont consent to any search.

    They did not like that said they could look regardless I said not with out a warrant! They said I should not be in this neighborhood at night etc. especially having a firearm in the open there is a lot of bad people. "I was pumping gas did not want to get any on my coat otherwise it would have been concealed" What a crock that stop was! In that neighbor hood I want to be armed i know the bad guys are.

    The owner of the store Gary is a friend and a hummer driver also so I support his biz "He no longer has GAS" He is firearm friendly and has the best price on beer in Vancouver hahaha.

    VPD seems to be power tripping to me! VPD officers need educated and stop their power trips.



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    I completely agree with you. It's setting a person up for public humiliation. I'm new to OC and am still researching the laws and what rights I have before I personally do so.

    In my opinion, the police are scared. People are starting to use their rights. OC is a right everyone has but not many use so it makes police feel "special" for lack of a better word. So if they come down hard on those who invoke their right to then others might decide it's too much hassle. It's a form of bullying and it shouldn't be allowed. If some one is feeling uneasy about a peson OCing then they should leave or look away. We don't try stepping on other constitutional rights so this one shouldn't get singled out.

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    If some one is feeling uneasy about a peson OCing then they should leave or look away. We don't try stepping on other constitutional rights so this one shouldn't get singled out.
    +1



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    Wonder if it is a Quota thing...


    I know its NY but may happen here..
    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...amp;id=7305356

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    That's amazing. Totally believable, but still amazing that it goes on in the United States. What have we come to?

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    missXmay wrote:
    ..."

    In my opinion, the police are scared. People are starting to use their rights. OC is a right everyone has but not many use so it makes police feel "special" for lack of a better word. So if they come down hard on those who invoke their right to then others might decide it's too much hassle. It's a form of bullying and it shouldn't be allowed. If some one is feeling uneasy about a peson OCing then they should leave or look away. We don't try stepping on other constitutional rights so this one shouldn't get singled out.
    David Codrea et al call these cops "only ones" as in "we're the only ones capable of ( ) where the blank can be filled in with whatever desired; safe gun handling, accuracy, passing an extensive background check, tactical superiority, ...the list goes on.

    MD


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    There is definately something wrong when the police need to turn law abiding citizens into criminals to justify thier existance.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Is New York still part of the United States? I ask because they haven't honored The Constitution in years. New Jersey and Illinois, as well. are Constitution Free Zones.

    MD

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    Continuing along for just a little more on the New York theme, the following chart is based on NYPD guidelines on what to watch for to justify a Terry Stop in NYC...

    The idea is if a LEO catches any of these "tells" a stop/ID/patdown is fully justified.

    Makes justifying a Terry pretty easy.

    http://tijil.org/CCW_Finder.jpg

    (I didn't put the whole big image up here - figured it was better for those interested to just go look at it on my server.)
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

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    I wonder what would happen if I was stopped and had my AK pistol on me? wonder if the LEO would be smart enough to know the difference between a AK Pistol and an AK Rifle?

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    Contract_Pilot wrote:
    I wonder what would happen if I was stopped and had my AK pistol on me? wonder if the LEO would be smart enough to know the difference between a AK Pistol and an AK Rifle?
    Quite honestly I think that most officers would believe it was an illegally modified rifle with a sawed off stock and barrel rather than a legit pistol.

    Same with a some of the rifle cartridge hunting pistols (Contender, for example).
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Facimus!

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    IF his carry rights have been violated and the Police were wrong in their actions, would there be cause for a lawsuit against the VPD and City?

    The ONLY thing that will prompt change is a nice judgment against the city.

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