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Thread: School zone question

  1. #1
    Regular Member proneblocked's Avatar
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    Does the school in question have to be an operating school? I live fairly close to a school building that is pretty much empty and owned by the village.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    proneblocked wrote:
    Does the school in question have to be an operating school? I live fairly close to a school building that is pretty much empty and owned by the village.
    Is it a school or isn't it? Are classes for 1-12 grade children held there? If not, it is not a school. Have the 15MPH school zone signs been removed?

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    If the school is closed and no longer in use, I would think you would have a very good defense agianst any office rthat would arrest you for violating the school zone restriction.

    Thats just my .02

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    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this

    section:

    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).

    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing

    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any

    starter pistol.

    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).

    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).

    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:

    1. In or on the grounds of a school.

    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.



    948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on

    school premises. (1) In this section:

    (a) “Dangerous weapon” has the meaning specified in s.

    939.22 (10), except “dangerous weapon” does not include any

    firearm and does include any beebee or pellet−firing gun that

    expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter

    pistol.

    (b) “School” means a public, parochial or private school which

    provides an educational program for one or more grades between

    grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary

    school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or

    high school.

    (c) “School premises” means any school building, grounds,

    recreation area or athletic field or any other property owned, used

    or operated for school administration.



  5. #5
    Regular Member proneblocked's Avatar
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    hunter9mm wrote:
    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this

    section:

    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).

    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing

    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any

    starter pistol.

    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).

    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).

    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:

    1. In or on the grounds of a school.

    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.



    948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on

    school premises. (1) In this section:

    (a) “Dangerous weapon” has the meaning specified in s.

    939.22 (10), except “dangerous weapon” does not include any

    firearm and does include any beebee or pellet−firing gun that

    expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter

    pistol.

    (b) “School” means a public, parochial or private school which

    provides an educational program for one or more grades between

    grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary

    school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or

    high school.

    (c) “School premises” means any school building, grounds,

    recreation area or athletic field or any other property owned, used

    or operated for school administration.

    Thx hunter, that is the answer I needed.

  6. #6
    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    NP, that's the way everyone here likes to receive information, just not the ONLY wayinfo gets sent around here lately... :what:

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    proneblocked wrote:
    hunter9mm wrote:
    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this

    section:

    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).

    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing

    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any

    starter pistol.

    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).

    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).

    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:

    1. In or on the grounds of a school.

    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.



    948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on

    school premises. (1) In this section:

    (a) “Dangerous weapon” has the meaning specified in s.

    939.22 (10), except “dangerous weapon” does not include any

    firearm and does include any beebee or pellet−firing gun that

    expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter

    pistol.

    (b) “School” means a public, parochial or private school which

    provides an educational program for one or more grades between

    grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary

    school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or

    high school.

    (c) “School premises” means any school building, grounds,

    recreation area or athletic field or any other property owned, used

    or operated for school administration.

    Thx hunter, that is the answer I needed.
    These are the key words. If the school is closed and no longer in use it is not providing any educational programs.

    Personally, I would be willing to fight this one in court.
    But that is just my .02

  8. #8
    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    So (ONLY) because I don't see it here....
    (in this statute)
    What about Colleges, Universities, all the so called "On-line Universities" like Phoenix and those that have little "School Spaces" in strip malls....

    Do they fall into the GFSZ as well???

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    hunter9mm wrote:
    So (ONLY) because I don't see it here....
    (in this statute)
    What about Colleges, Universities, all the so called "On-line Universities" like Phoenix and those that have little "School Spaces" in strip malls....

    Do they fall into the GFSZ as well???
    No they do not qualify.

    (b) “School” means a public, parochial or private school which

    provides an educational program for one or more grades between

    grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary

    school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school or

    high school.

  10. #10
    Regular Member hunter9mm's Avatar
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    So I can Carry past (within 1000 ft.) a community college, the medical college of Wisconsin, etc. ???



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    hunter9mm wrote:
    So I can Carry past (within 1000 ft.) a community college, the medical college of Wisconsin, etc. ???

    *
    as long as the medical college of wisconsin doesn't teach grades 1-12. or any of the colleges teach 1-12, you should be ok. lol

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    I live across from a pre-school. No K-12 taught there. Wondering if there isn't some loophole here where they could get you for OC in school zone? If its only K-12 that is great I wasn't ocing walking the dog but now this sheds new light!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Constitution wrote:
    I live across from a pre-school. No K-12 taught there. Wondering if there isn't some loophole here where they could get you for OC in school zone? If its only K-12 that is great I wasn't ocing walking the dog but now this sheds new light!
    The letter of the law says grades 1-12. If it is just K or K and preschool like daycares, etc then it is not a GFSZ...

  14. #14
    McX
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    i'm still struggling with developing a workable system, or plan to navigate school zones. my problem lies in me going to a buisness in a school zone, that has no off street parking, therefor i have to park on the street, in the school zone.
    i understand about vehicle firearm transport, but still kinda wonder, as for people who live in a school zone, and say go out to their car parked on the street, early in the morning, with their encased shotgun, to go say duck hunting. are they violating the school zone law?
    i will try to cite an example(s) that is real to me, to seek advice on;
    i understand the private property rights thing, even in a school zone. if i desire to visit my friend across the street from my shop, and he allows open carry, but has no offstreet parking, if i encase my firearm, in a manner approved and defined for vehicle transport, but i won't be vehicle transporting, i carry the case across the street, which is a school zone, then enter his business, have i violated the school zone rule? can i claim transporting, though i am carrying the case in my hand? Does this also violate the out of reach rule, if i tried to claim transporting?
    if i visit a business, that is in a school zone, but allows open carry on their premices, can i park on the street, do the approved vehicle transport thing to arrive there, then remove the case, and enter the business, and holster up, and not have violated the school zone rule?
    am i asking alot of questions that fall into a 'grey' area, that would be open to interpretation by the d.a. ?

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    McX
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    crap, i think i may have found the answer to my own question on the thread that a member mentions bringing a firearm to school for a presentation. doug, i think you answered me, but i'm still confused: 948.60 2. pretty much says it all, but then further down 3a. mentions encased, in what i presume is the exclusion section. am i on the right track?

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    McX wrote:
    if i encase my firearm, in a manner approved and defined for vehicle transport, but i won't be vehicle transporting, i carry the case across the street, which is a school zone, then enter his business, have i violated the school zone rule? can i claim transporting, though i am carrying the case in my hand? Does this also violate the out of reach rule, if i tried to claim transporting?
    I don't know about violating 948.605 but that would be a violation of 941.23 in my cowardly I-ANAL opinion.

    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
    a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
    weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Notwithstanding s.
    939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
    include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission
    warden.
    History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.
    The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
    the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).
    A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
    a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
    (1986).
    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
    s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
    2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
    State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

  17. #17
    McX
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    yep, you got me in full agreement on that doug. i didn't see that subsection, they could easily get me on item 1 and 2. i love the doesn't require going anywhere. ya know, lawyers live in school zones, you would think one of them would have noticed that one, and went after it. seems like anyone who lives in a school zone, and even so much as takes their shotgun out ot their car, parked on the street, to go duck hunting is on a technical. i could rant, but i'll just say damn it.

  18. #18
    McX
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    so i'm carrying this bit out in my noggin; in an area, like say west racine, where there's lots of old houses, but no driveways, the people that have guns in their homes there technically violated the law to get them home. to me that sounds like they are depriving a person in that predicament, in that zone of a right, and forcing them to act in an illegal manner to exercise that right. boy, i hope wisconsin carry gets to mention this in court!

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    can somebody (doug) pos the school zone law section here, cuz i don't have it. but basically you'd have to go with the school zone rule, which says you can not transport a gun in a school zone unless unloaded and encased. so basically if you wanted to go from your shop to the smoke shop across the street, you'd have to unload and encase before leaving your property (small portable handgun case, nothing fancy), then walk across to the other business, and once you are on their private property, then remove it from the case, load and holster. and same thing to go back to your property.

    that's my understanding at least. obviously i'm not a lawyer, but i did stay at a holiday in.

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    scorpio_vette wrote:
    can somebody (doug) pos the school zone law section here, cuz i don't have it. but basically you'd have to go with the school zone rule, which says you can not transport a gun in a school zone unless unloaded and encased. so basically if you wanted to go from your shop to the smoke shop across the street, you'd have to unload and encase before leaving your property (small portable handgun case, nothing fancy), then walk across to the other business, and once you are on their private property, then remove it from the case, load and holster. and same thing to go back to your property.

    that's my understanding at least. obviously i'm not a lawyer, but i did stay at a holiday in.
    This coward ANAL. If you carry an encased weapon in public then you are in violation of 941.23 that has three elements and no exception for school zones.
    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person ... who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this
    section:
    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing
    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any
    starter pistol.
    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    (2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Any individual
    who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is
    guilty of a Class I felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;
    2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so
    by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco
    and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is
    located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that,
    before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement
    authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the
    individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased; or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    4. By an individual for use in a program approved by a school
    in the school zone;
    5. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    6. By a law enforcement officer or state−certified commission
    warden acting in his or her official capacity; or
    7. That is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
    traversing school grounds for the purpose of gaining access to
    public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    grounds is authorized by school authorities.
    8. By a person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the
    school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the
    school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    (3) DISCHARGE OF FIREARM IN A SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Any individual
    who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of
    another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place the
    individual knows is a school zone is guilty of a Class G felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the discharge of, or the
    attempt to discharge, a firearm:
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;
    2. As part of a program approved by a school in the school
    zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    3. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in a school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual; or
    4. By a law enforcement officer or state−certified commission
    warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    History: 1991 a. 17; 1993 a. 336; 2001 a. 109; 2005 a. 290; 2007 a. 27.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:


    948.605 Gun−free school zones. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this
    section:
    (a) “Encased” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    (ac) “Firearm” does not include any beebee or pellet−firing
    gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any
    starter pistol.
    (am) “Motor vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    (b) “School” has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    (c) “School zone” means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    (2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Any individual
    who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is
    guilty of a Class I felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;
    2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so
    by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco
    and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is
    located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that,
    before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement
    authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the
    individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased;
    or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    4. By an individual for use in a program approved by a school
    in the school zone;
    5. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    6. By a law enforcement officer or state−certified commission
    warden acting in his or her official capacity; or
    7. That is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
    traversing school grounds for the purpose of gaining access to
    public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    grounds is authorized by school authorities.
    8. By a person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the
    school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the
    school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    (3) DISCHARGE OF FIREARM IN A SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Any individual
    who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of
    another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place the
    individual knows is a school zone is guilty of a Class G felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the discharge of, or the
    attempt to discharge, a firearm:
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;
    2. As part of a program approved by a school in the school
    zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    3. By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in a school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual; or
    4. By a law enforcement officer or state−certified commission
    warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    History: 1991 a. 17; 1993 a. 336; 2001 a. 109; 2005 a. 290; 2007 a. 27.
    [/quote]

    this is just me personally, but since there are so many different laws for different geographical locations, and they don't "communicate" with each other, i personally would abide by the law written for school zone. and the parts i highlighted above are the parts i would go by when in a SCHOOL ZONE.

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    Where do you find the exception in 941.23 for a school zone? Will you argue that you can have a dangerous weapon on your person or within reach while you are
    aware of the weapon’s presence because it is encased as required by 948.605? Or that 948.605 encasement is different from 941.23 hidden concealment?

    Angels rush in where cowards fear to tread.

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    no what i'm saying is that wisconsins own law doesn't agree with itself and contradicts itself, and so you have to do the best you can with the **** they give you.

  24. #24
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    scorpio_vette wrote:
    no what i'm saying is that wisconsins own law doesn't agree with itself and contradicts itself, and so you have to do the best you can with the @#$% they give you.
    Scorpio

    It's very common knowledgein Wisconsin (at least in these gun related laws) that the old laws contradict themselves and is one of the issues that cause the "Loop-Holes" that give LEO's and DA's the power that they use to Enforce and Harass.

    The way I tend to play it is to do what you can to exercises you rights, but not tend to push too hard, to give them any "Head-Line News Articles" in their favor.

    There's plenty of places we CAN OC, and we should do just that as much as we can, without looking for the grayest of Gray Areas to help out the Anti's...

    Just my 2 cents worth.



  25. #25
    McX
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    bingo, enforce and harrass, i was trying to get the words into my mind, and that gentlemen, will keep me out of the school zones period.

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